86.7% caucasian?!?!?!?!?!?!

Colleges and Universities A-Z Washington & Lee University
81

<p>wlpoppa</p>

<p>You really believe giving some weight to URM status so a school can improve its diversity is reverse discrimination??</p>

<p>WOW!! That is nonsense. I would agree with you in a perfect world, but we hardly live in a perfect world. URM students generally have a more difficult, challenging life than well to do rich Caucasian students. You realize that W&L accepts nearly 50% of ED applicants for who money is not an issue. Most URM do not apply ED because financial aid matters. $2-3,000 difference in net cost factor makes a difference to many URMs and their families. I’m sure for you that’s a drop in the bucket and such a difference is a non-factor for you.</p>

<p>Applying ED means that you have to go to W&L and withdraw your applications from ALL other schools. URMs cannot do that because cost is an important issue.</p>

<p>Whenever I hear a rich white person say such things, it makes me wonder if there is a tall pointy white hat in the closet. </p>

<p>You seem to believe the playing field is level. I hate to break it to you Wlpoppa, but it is not. You are keen to point out that African Americans score 20% lower than their Caucasian counterparts on the SAT/ACT, but the average income disparity is even greater. Do you know the single greatest factor that determines how well a student will do on standardized test scores? Yes, it is family income. </p>

<p>Unfortunately W&L accepts a lot of rich kids over better qualified URMs under the ED program. I agree showing demonstrated interest in a school should be a factor, but not by a factor of nearly 5 times the admission rate of URMs. That is wrong.</p>

82

<p>Hi, rlpak-</p>

<p>“Demonstrated interest” and “early decision” are different things. One can demonstrate one’s interest in the school by visiting it. Or by striking up an email relationship with the admissions officer who will be reading your application. Or by participating in an interview. The applicant interest category is something that is looked at, but isn’t as important as rigor, class rank/GPA, and, yes, test scores.</p>

<p>Also a word about Early Decision, and the seemingly astonishing edge it gives you—i.e. a 40% admit rate (not “almost 50%”-the use of such hyperbole weakens your other excellent arguments because it makes you seem strident and, well, hyperbolic) vs. 18% for overall applicants. </p>

<p>Athletic recruits and legacies are huge parts of the Early Decision pool. In the case of athletes, they are virtually assured a spot in the class. That’s not to say that they’re a bunch of dumb jocks who don’t belong at W&L. Rather, the coaches will not waste their influence on someone who is not going to get in anyway. They run their recruits by the admissions office to see the likelihood of admission. If a student can’t cut it, the admissions department will so inform the recruiting coach who will tell the athlete he can’t “support” him. That athlete will then be looking at other perhaps less selective schools. The athletes do have an advantage in that they merely have to be in about the 50th percentile in academic quality to get accepted as a recruit. A non-athlete, lacking a hook, has to be better than that. But the point is, if the Field Hockey coach is submitting 4 names to admissions, they are all likely to get in. 4 out of 4. But the admissions boost is dependent on that athlete applying Early Decision—otherwise the coach wouldn’t want to exert influence on behalf of a kid who might matriculate elsewhere. I would estimate that something on the order of 75 applicants in the ED pool are recruited athletes. You will find a similar percentage of the applicant pool at Amherst, Pomona, Wesleyan, Hamilton, etc. having the same advantage. </p>

<p>Legacies might make up 45 ED spots. They might be admitted at about a 50% rate, which is a hell of an edge. You might call it “affirmative action for the affluent”. Although, a 50% legacy admit rate also means that about 50% of legacies are rejected each year. </p>

<p>Subtract out the recruited athletes and legacy applicants, and the ED admit rate is about 25%. Still better than 18%, but not the overwhelming edge it appears to be at first. And I think you will find the same situation at most schools with ED programs.</p>

<p>Finally, on the financial aid issue, you are correct that financially challenged families usually don’t have the luxury of applying ED, unless their income is low enough that they are assured of financial help (at W&L, that means a family with an income of under $75,000). But lest you paint W&L a school just for the wealthy, you are aware, I hope, that over 200 members of the most recently matriculating class (over 40%) received some form of need-based financial aid, and the average award was nearly $40,000.</p>

<p>So, if you’re interested, get off these boards and investigate this great institution for yourself! As I’ve stated earlier, Washington and Lee is an amazing place that will only get better if more super-talented minority students become part of its fabric.</p>

83

<p>Bellybones</p>

<p>Thanks for your input.</p>

<p>First, in 2012 ED1 were accepted at 44% and in 2011 ED1 were accepted at 47% per W&L website. I stated “W&L accepts nearly 50% of ED applicants for who money is not an issue” based on the ED1 figures and taking the liberty of adding a few percentage points to those applicants who were not seeking financial aid. Admissions stated that W&L is NOT a need blind school even though W&L is one of the best endowed schools in the country per student. So it was not hyperbole but facts that I was stating.</p>

<p>Second, I am not privy to the breakdown of who is admitted in ED1 so I can not intelligently speak on that subject. I can only speak on the numbers that I have available from the W&L. I would like greater information of the breakdown of applicants to be made public by W&L but if you happen to have these numbers please state where we can view them.</p>

<p>Third, although I agree with you that “demonstrated interest” and “early decision” are not the same. It is analogous to “all squares are rhombuses, but not all rhombuses are squares.” There is no higher level of demonstrated interest than applying early decision. No amount of interviews, emails to admission or any other action can compare to demonstrated interest of applying ED. An applicant applies early decision because it is his/her top choice and the applicant agrees to be bound to go if admitted ED. The applicant once admitted must withdraw all applications from other schools.</p>

<p>My point was that applying ED is difficult for URMs because of finances and what seems a small amount of money for the wealthy, may be a deal breaker for URM families where money is an issue. So applying ED is out of the question for many URMs.</p>

<p>It is great that W&L has created the under $75,000 guarantee this year, which hopefully will improve URM ED applications this year but given the lack of notice of the program’s creation, it might not have as much impact this year. It will be a positive factor in the years to come.</p>

<p>Ultimately, my point was that even if the minority applicant pool is on the lower side of the overall profile of accepted students, admitting a few more of the URMs who are on the bottom of the profile would be a good thing and would help diversify the student body at W&L. Given the enrollment numbers from last year, accepting 15 more URMs would increase last years total enrollment by only 5 more students but would have increased minority enrollment by nearly 10%. </p>

<p>I almost decided not to apply to W&L because of the poor showing of minority enrollment. I am sure this is a deterring issue for many URMs as well. I chose to apply because I looked past these numbers and attributed the low minority enrollment to low minority applications. Since I liked the idea that a school respected its students via the honor system, I decided to apply. So, I did investigate W&L and even made the nearly 3000 mile journey to visit the school three weeks ago.</p>

<p>It was on this cite that Goblue provided information that was counter to my assumptions. I was shocked to see that 514 Asian Americans applied last year and only 50 were accepted. My assumption of low minority applications was wrong. It was the lower than average rate of acceptance and the disparity in acceptance rates between whites and minorities that lead me to provide so many responses on this thread. </p>

<p>I genuinely care about these types of issues. Like Wlpoppa I do not believe in discrimination based upon race, ethnicity etc, but unlike Wlpoppa, allowing W&L admission to give some weight to URM status does not smack of “reverse discrimination,” but is similar to giving athletes a boost, or weight given extra curricular activities such as playing the violin or even giving the nod to those who are rich enough not to require any financial aid. </p>

<p>I do not go as far as GoBlue who I think jumps to conclusions easily and too quickly by calling W&L racist, but the data was not flattering to W&L. Which was why I had my father contact admissions about this issue and why I write to enlighten others for positive change. </p>

<p>Goblue is a good student. He/she is of Hispanic decent with a 3.3 GPA and 30 ACT but based upon past average profile of W&L freshman, he/she has little chance of acceptance. My chances are pretty bad even though my numbers are 10% better than GoBlues across the board. I’m of Asian American decent and based upon the past numbers, I have less than 10% shot at acceptance whereas a similar white applicant is nearly 4 times more likely to be admitted.</p>

<p>I hope everyone who reads this thread helps bridge the acceptance rate gap between ethnicity so W&L is more diverse and more representative of the real world demographics.</p>

84

<p>@rlpak14 I strongly disagree w/ much of what you say and you prove my point when you say things like " I am not privy to the breakdown of who is admitted in ED1 so I can not intelligently speak on that subject." That’s only the tip of the iceberg for info you’re not “privy” to. So please stop trolling.</p>

<p>Also, while I’m sure goblue is a great person, I’ve never met anyone at W&L who had a GPA that low in high school, and I’ve only met a couple of kids who had ACT scores that low and I know some of those people got in off the wait list. That alone should give a better insight into how W&L’s admissions work rather than obsessing over minority numbers. </p>

<p>You ask for W&L to be representative of real world demographics, well it’s representative of the real world. Life is not fair, and most people don’t care what your background is, they care about how much you can do for them.</p>

85

<p>After reading all the posts on this thread, I feel a need to contribute.

  1. W&L does not have to adhere to anyone’s ratio/percentage concerning the admission of minorities. There is no diversity bell curve that must be followed.
  2. No one, save current and recent admissions officers, knows exactly what W&L is looking for in an incoming first year student. There are probably multiple variables that need to be considered before a student is granted admission. Admissions is looking for a student who will be a good “fit” at W&L, not just a person who scored highly on a standardized test. With only 450 or so incoming first years, I would venture to say that the admissions office can craft whatever type of class they’d like to see at their university. If that number of 450 does not include as many minorities as some would like to see, so be it. There are many other schools at which to apply.
  3. For students like goblue, you need to become proactive in your attempt at a school achieving diversity instead of typing at a computer regurgitating facts and figures. If you want that diversity “barrier” to be lessened or eliminated, do something about it! Contact W&L admissions and express an interest in attending, go visit the campus on an official tour, arrange an interview while you are there, apply ED, and roll the dice just like any other prospective student applying to a good school would do. Please remember that there are many other factors other than SAT/ACT scores which will factor into admission and ultimately success at W&L. W&L places some emphasis on EC’s. Does the applicant have great EC’s which can be utilized or continued in college? Or should only test scores be factored in admissions? Does the applicant have a desire for Greek life? (Approximately 75-80% of W&L is Greek.) Or should Greek activities be curtailed because minorities might not be familiar with the system? Twenty five percent of W&L students participate in a sport. Or should athletics be eliminated because Asians are not normally well represented in varsity sports? I am being ridiculous here, but do you get my drift here?
  4. Too many of our younger generation feel that the world needs to adapt to them, as is the case with some of the posters on this thread thinking that W&L needs to change its minority admissions/diversity. At some point, they will realize that the opposite is true. Some will find out the easy way and some will find out the hard way.</p>
86

<p>coppijr</p>

<p>I know a Caucasian person who has a similar profile to Goblue that was accepted to W&L. That person’s profile and goblue’s is as follows:</p>

<p>your profile coppijr------------------- goblue</p>

<p>3.6 weighted GPA ------------------- 3.3 unweighted GPA = 3.6 weighted GPA
2000 SAT (1350 cr+m)--------------- 30 ACT (SAT equiv. 2000 SAT (1340 cr+m)
hook: Jewish -------------------------Hispanic</p>

<p>Enough said!</p>

87

<p>I actually have a 32/possibly 33 superscored and W+L does superscore. Also I am a first gen college student and I have a 3.8 for the first semester of sr year. The reason I had a 3.3 is bc i worked 35 hours per week during the yr and i am sure they will cut me some slack for that. I think I can reasonably expect an acceptance, but given the extremely low acceptance rate of urms im not too sure.</p>

88

<p>Hey, goblue–I hope you’re admitted and decide to attend. It’s a great place.
rlpak–ditto to you–I’m so glad you’ve visited and begun to form your own first-hand impressions. However, your comparison of the two candidates is pretty superficial. Please revisit the factors that W&L considers very important: academic rigor, class rank, extracurriculars, personal qualities/character. Admittedly, some of these are very subjective, but that’s why Washington and Lee has a large staff of admissions officers to build an excellent student body and not a computer that digests “stats” and spits out acceptances.</p>

89

<p>Goblue</p>

<p>You and I are in similar boat. Perhaps the admit rate of URM will be a bit better this year.
I think coppijr owes you an apology even without your boost in ACT score, you still fit low end of W&L profile.</p>

<p>One thing you might want to do is retract your statement that W&L is racist. From my perspective there is not sufficient evidence for such a claim.</p>

90

<p>bellybones,</p>

<p>I know the comparison was just based upon GPA and test score, but it was to address coppijr’s attack on goblue that his/her stats were nowhere near a typical W&L student.</p>

<p>Thanks for your input. Well thought out input I very much appreciate.</p>

91

<p>To the original poster: you state that the student body is rich (you state that twice), Southern and white, and then you attribute a negative characteristic to the student body based on its racial and socioeconomic status. </p>

<p>Such a statement is unacceptable no matter which group is the target.</p>

92

<p>I have actually decided not to apply to W&L. I just dont think I would fit in at the school, and I feel that I would be happier at a school with more diversity</p>

93

<p>W&L states that course rigor, class rank and extracurricular a are more important than test scores or GPA. Goblue never indicated a rigorous schedule that included lots of AP courses, never indicated class rank (probably not great based on a 3.3 GPA) or any extracurriculars. W&L is highly selective and is looking for top talent with breadth and depth. Based on that info, he/she probably wouldn’t have gotten an offer of acceptance. Probably better he/she has chosen to pursue other options.</p>

94

<p>Goblue I’m sorry you opted to not apply to W&L. It’s a school that features a degree of academic rigor on par with the many of the aforementioned elite LACs. It also features a social setting that enables both maturation for introverts and adequate engagement for extroverts. </p>

<p>The stats you’ve presented reveal issues that the university will have to address further during the current decade. As much as I acknowledge that diversity is one of the paramount issues W&L must tackle if it wants to solidify its place as a top tier LAC, I also believe the stats presented don’t paint the whole picture. </p>

<p>I don’t want to reach any conclusions either way but one area your stats fail to address is early decision applications. As far as top LACs go, W&L has a very high ED acceptance rate(generally over 40% for the 400+ ED applicants), when you take out these students the reported acceptance rate drops to around 15% for the remaining applicants. I wish the university would publish information about ED applicant demographics because I believe these ED applicants are overwhelmingly caucasian and contain a significant amount of the legacies. I bring this up because there may be a concurrent drop in the caucasian acceptance rate in the regular decision application process that may reflect a less disparaging gap between minority acceptances given that the majority of students who consider W&L their top choice are white or have family members who attended the school(and these would namely be white as well).
I do not have the sort of information to fully back this assertion, but I think in general the types of applicants who are attracted to this university above all others can at times seem limited. The issue is that certain types of applicant demographics (i.e, southern, legacy, and caucasian) are more bankable since these “bankable” options take more aggressive and definitive means to gain acceptance. The advent of the Johnson Scholarship and the progress in financial aid over the past 10 years will hopefully help to reform these issues as more and more options transcend the traditional ways to attract applicants.</p>

95

<p>avignon,
Yes that actually makes sense… At all schools, not just W&l, early decision candidates are usually wealthy and caucasian, so this probably throws off the overall average…
I actually decided to just throw in an application… I recently got a 35 act and have a 3.9 for senior yr so im currently looking at other options, but I will probably visit W&L and see how I like it.
But my main assertation from the data was that W&L has a plethora of diverse candidates to choose from: almost 40% of its applicants are diverse, yet only 14% of the student body is diverse… There is definately something fishy with these numbers… and I dont buy it that they cant find quality minorities out of that 40%… the students applying to W&L are no different than any other top LAC (probably a little more southern) so I fail to see how hamilton,colgate, and even carleton and grinell (which are in isolated parts of the country) can have 2-3x the diversity of w&l when the same types of students are applying to all these schools…</p>

96

<p>GoBlue2018, saying that 40% of the candidates are diverse based on their ethnicity is such a stupid assertion. That’s automatically assuming that any kid who is white is the same as another kid. There are differences between Caucasians in terms of upbringing, heritage and passions. Its comparable to assuming every person of Latino or South American heritage has a quinceanera and eats tacos. They don’t, not every white kid is the same either. I think you need to re-examine what it means to be diverse. </p>

<p>Also, the sad fact is that money plays a big factor in need-aware schools and it’s no secret that on average, Caucasians are wealthier. </p>

<p>Lastly, I am shocked that you even applied to a school that you seem to loathe. You have not interviewed or visited, which incredibly important in distinguishing it from Hamilton, Colgate, Carleton and Grinell. Ask anyone who has visited Hamilton and Colgate, two geographically and academically similar schools, and they will tell you that they are extremely different. An uninformed student might be applying to all the top lacs, but any student who knows what they want in a school shouldn’t be.</p>

97

<p>bayernmunich</p>

<p>While I agree with you that everyone is unique and brings something different, but classifying that as diversity in counter to what the theme of this thread is all about. By your definition of diversity, W&L and every other institution has 100% diversity because no two students are exactly alike.</p>

<p>I don’t think there is one institution that defines diversity the way you do. When W&L states that it is looking to diversify its student population, we all know what that means. It means bringing more students of color to the school. Goblue believes that W&L has enough applicants already to make the campus more diverse but for whatever reasons, the school is less diverse than it could be. So Goblue’s assertions are not “stupid.”</p>

<p>I am not sure why W&L is a need aware school given that it is one of the riches, well-endowed school in the country. I think I saw somewhere that it is in the top 15 best endowed university based upon endowment dollars per student. I believe it is about $600,000 per student. Assuming that 5% is used per student, a grant of about $30,000 can be given to each student from the endowment each year. That is a big chunk of the cost to attend W&L. Given that half of the student body does not receive financial aid, you can see where I’m going with this.</p>

<p>As to Goblue applying to W&L, that is his/her right and none of our business. By the way, I don’t ever recall Goblue stating that he/she loathed W&L. His/her complaint was toward admission’s decision not to admit more students of color given the large pool of applicants and the extremely low admission rate of students of color compared to the Caucasian admission rate and the overall admission rate. </p>

<p>I hope that girlincross, the author of this thread, follows Goblue’s lead and applies to W&L to bring about change. If high achieving students of color do not apply the diversity at W&L will not change and that would be a shame, because W&L is an excellent school that should be a destination of ALL TOP STUDENTS regardless of race and ethnicity. Unfortunately, many top students of color are turned off by the lack of diversity at W&L and simply choose not to apply.</p>

98

<p>The main reason I applied to W&L is because the financial aid is amazing and for me it is several thousand cheaper than even Amherst and ivies… Plus they have a no loans policy…
So I see no reason why they cant be need blind, and even though they are not need blind 50% of the student body is on financial aid so this is definately not a factor that limits diversity…
Also, I never said I loathe W&L. It is a top 20 LAC but its diversity is the lowest out of all top LACS/National Universities, and I am simply trying to understand how they can only have 15% minorities when 40% of the applicants are minorities. Also they are accepting white students at triple the rate of Asians (who on average are more qualified than white students) which is equally disturbing…
These facts are causes for concern and something is obviously going on inside the admissions office, but we will never get a 100% full explanation of what is going on and why this is happening.</p>

99

<p>^ The irony is that you could be precisely the kind of highly qualified URM that W&L is trying to attract, but you almost didn’t apply.</p>

100

<p>Honestly why would any high qualified URMs really apply to and attend W&L?
these students have plenty of options including ivies and top LACs, and although some of them might be interested in W&L, they probably cross it off their list after finding out the extreme lack of diversity, especially since it is only around 3% hispanic and 2% african american. Many top schools have 10%+ of each… I have spoken to many minority students who chose amherst,bowdoin, hamilton, haverford, and other LACs over W&L and all of them were put off by the homogenus student body and lack of diversity. Im sure most minorities would feel very out of place at W&L surrounded almost entirely by wealthy white kids and im sure the greek life+heavy drinking aspect makes minorities feel even more out of place…
So the top few minority students who actually gain acceptance to W&L are choosing between W&L and ivies+amherst,williams and other top schools which have double and often triple the diversity of W&L, so why would a highly qualified urm choose to attend?? I am actually curious about this.
Basically, I think there is no reason for a highly qualified urm to attend W&L (besides a johnson scholarship) and the school is doing nothing to attract and enroll these types of students. They could start by accepting more minority students, thus increasing the diversity of the school which would make more qualified minorities want to attend. its not rocket science</p>