<p>I think UTD should be considered a top tier school in Texas. For the majors they specialize in/were founded for, they are actually the only UT school other than Austin, that is really up to par.</p>
<p>I think it all depends on how you define "deserving." If you define it as "best overall stats,' then yes "deserving kids" don't get admitted. But if you look at "worked his ass off so he could go to college when 3/4 of his class dropped out," then I'd say that's also deserving.</p>
<p>Top ten kids have been shown to be just as if not more successful in college than non top-ten kids, so I really don't see what the big deal is. Yeah, it sucks for you if you don't get in. So why don't we just go ahead and change the system so you can get in, because you DEFINITELY deserve it more than some kid who is taught in an underachieving school and isn't offered SAT prep and has to work to support his family. This isn't really targeted at anyone on here, just whiners in general.</p>
<p>I wouldn't say I benefitted from the law. I know I would have been in no matter what and my top choice major didn't use rank as the major factor anyways. My support of the top ten law isn't based on my own personal gain, but rather what's best for THE ENTIRE STATE. And what's best for EVERYBODY, and not just for Sugar Land and Plano and Round Rock, is that a diverse spectrum of kids from across the state, who are the best from their hometowns, come together to make UT a diverse place where the smartest of all Texans gather, rather than Plano Senior University. Yes, I know that kids from white and Asian suburban backgrounds have higher SAT scores. But WHY are you saying that an SAT should be the only factor. You think you have good extracurriculars, but you should really be comparing this to the ECs offered. If a kid goes to a 100-student high school, he isn't going to have the same EC chances as someone at Plano.</p>
<p>But people really need to look at this as a question of how does the whole state benefit and not just UT or themselves. UT is going to be in a crunch for the next two years or so and then the echo boom will tail off and UT will be able to admit more non-top ten kids.</p>
<p>Plus, when the university offers EVERYONE the chance to get in after a year elsewhere GUARANTEED, you shouldn't complain that you didn't get admitted for right when you wanted. Ask Cal Berkeley if you can spend a year at Merced and then be guaranteed admission to Berkeley. They will laugh their heads off. Same with UVa and UVA Wise, or with UNC and UNC Greensboro. UT's CAP is an opportunity offered by no other top-tier school in the country.</p>
<p>All in all, UT does great strides to foster a diverse student body and to allow all who want to attend to get in. If it isn't broken (and if anything, it's flourishing), why fix it?</p>
<p>And yes I'd say UTD is a top tier school.</p>
<p>I think that if it were bigger and had DI sports, it would be known as one of the best universities for math and science in the country.</p>
<p>And they give out scholarship money like candy!</p>
<p>I think the law would be better if it borrowed from the California system. In California if you are in the top 4% of your graduating class you are guaranteed admission to a UC.</p>
<p>The way the Texas system is now, with 10% of each graduating class guaranteed admission to the Texas college of their choice, and the way the trend is going, in a few years there will be no room left at the University of Texas at Austin for
1) terrific Texas students who are outside the top 10% because they go to unranked schools or highly competitive schools
2) international students who add considerably to the culture and diversity of the campus
3) great out of state students, too!</p>
<p>
[quote]
But people really need to look at this as a question of how does the whole state benefit and not just UT or themselves. UT is going to be in a crunch for the next two years or so and then the echo boom will tail off and UT will be able to admit more non-top ten kids.
[/quote]
Really, because nothing seems to be tailing off. UT wants to admit less students, and the entire class could be hypothetically taken up by people who were top 10% and applied here.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Top ten kids have been shown to be just as if not more successful in college than non top-ten kids, so I really don't see what the big deal is. Yeah, it sucks for you if you don't get in. So why don't we just go ahead and change the system so you can get in, because you DEFINITELY deserve it more than some kid who is taught in an underachieving school and isn't offered SAT prep and has to work to support his family. This isn't really targeted at anyone on here, just whiners in general.
[/quote]
Shown where?.. I am willing to bet that somebody who was out of the top 10 with a better SAT score, would fare better than somebody who got in top 10, and otherwise wouldn't have. ****, when I came here I thought there would be a lot more smart people then there actually were. In my first math class here,the test came exactly from the review, and people still came out of the first test getting 10's and 20's. Its better for me, but people like that shouldn't be able to get in period.</p>
<p>Why should all EC be limited to high school activities. If a high school doesn't have something you want to do, go find a place that does. That's why its called EC.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Plus, when the university offers EVERYONE the chance to get in after a year elsewhere GUARANTEED, you shouldn't complain that you didn't get admitted for right when you wanted. Ask Cal Berkeley if you can spend a year at Merced and then be guaranteed admission to Berkeley. They will laugh their heads off. Same with UVa and UVA Wise, or with UNC and UNC Greensboro. UT's CAP is an opportunity offered by no other top-tier school in the country.
[/quote]
I really don't see how wasting a year to get into UT is an opportunity. And yes it is wasting a year. The academic standards at the other UT schools aren't even close to UT. And a place like UTSA just ends up becoming a transitional "high school/college" where the kids from big high schools have to go.</p>
<p>I will give CAP some credit, because its obviously UT's way of allowing people who did get screwed by the top 10 percent rule to get in. But without any of the top ten percent crap, deserving kids would get in, and the maybe less qualified top 10 percent students would go to CAP and prove themselves, because that's what should happen. Not the other way around.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I really don't see how wasting a year to get into UT is an opportunity. And yes it is wasting a year.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>From a financial perspective, and a return on investment standpoint it really isn't a waste at all. </p>
<p>If you are simply complaining about the quality of classes one could argue that he/she has wasted far more than a year in the educational system taking classes that he/she will NEVER EvvvvvER use after graduation. Get over it. First year classes are generally pre-reqs and they don't mean a whole hell of a lot regardless of where you attend.</p>
<p>On a side note, I find it funny that these (stupid) parents who spend a lot of money and sacrifice their quality of life just to ensure that their kids get a "quality" HS education, are actually hurting their kids chances at getting into UT.</p>
<p>
[quote]
UT's CAP is an opportunity offered by no other top-tier school in the country.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>My comment doesn't really "fit" in a UT thread, but I wanted to say that we do have what is basically CAP here in Ohio. Ohio State University is rated as the 19th best public University and if you don't get into Ohio State (you need about a 3.5 GPA and pretty good test scores) you can go to one of OSU's regional campuses for the next year or two and as long as your grades are all right, you can automatically transfer into OSU. (You don't even need to apply for the transfer.) </p>
<p>While you are at a regional campus, you can get student tickets to OSU football games, etc. You are treated as if you were already an OSU student. The regional campuses are all within an hour of OSU in Columbus and they are open admission; if you live in Ohio and graduate HS or get a GED, you will be admitted to any of the regional campuses you choose (the Newark, Delaware, Lima, Mansfield, Marion campuses)</p>
<p>IMO, I think prereqs, although probaby not mean much, are a pretty good indicator of where you stand academically. Pre-reqs are foundational classes that several several other classes build off of the pre-reqs.</p>
<p>Parents aren't dumb when they sent their kids to more academically challenging schools. Maybe some don't want their kids going to UT in the first place. These parents may want their kids going to schools like Rice, Brown, etc. They could care less that the chances at UT are hurt. UT isn't the best school anyways.</p>
<p>
[quote]
IMO, I think prereqs, although probaby not mean much, are a pretty good indicator of where you stand academically. Pre-reqs are foundational classes that several several other classes build off of the pre-reqs.</p>
<p>Parents aren't dumb when they sent their kids to more academically challenging schools. Maybe some don't want their kids going to UT in the first place. These parents may want their kids going to schools like Rice, Brown, etc. They could care less that the chances at UT are hurt. UT isn't the best school anyways.
[/quote]
How many students do you know of that got into Rice and Brown but not UT... It just doesn't happen. So unless their kids are the cream of the crop to begin with, sending their kids to a academically challenging high school would just dig them deeper into the hole. They might have a higher SAT, but it doesn't mean anything with a bad rank.</p>
<p>Well, I don't really think that being in the "cream of the crop" in the first place has to do anything with how well you'll succeed. I'm sure some people are able to do well even with a bad start. But yea, you don't see people getting into Rice, Brown, etc. and not UT, but at least an academically challenging schools can help in a way--maybe give kids a potential to get into Rice,etc (although kids who don't go to a challenging school have potential, too). I agree though. I wasn't in the "cream of the crops," so I have a pretty bad rank. But going to an academically challenging schools has helped me tremendously. Plus, my school doesn't rank, so that helps.</p>
<p>Here's a solution: RANK YOUR GRADUATES! If you don't want your kids to get hurt by the top ten law, you should lobby your administration to change their policies.</p>
<p>My school, for instance, ONLY provides ranks for admission to in-state public schools, and doesn't anywhere else.</p>
<p>The UC rule would not work because the rest of the UT system is nowhere near as good as the UC system. We have UT, which is as good as UCLA and bit behind Berkeley. Then we have UTD, which is probably at the same level as San Diego (though US News would tell you otherwise) in technical fields. The rest of the UT system is at or below the CSU level.</p>
<p>If there were a super system, consisting of UT, UTD, TAMU, and maybe Texas State, that policy MIGHT work, but really there is too big of a disparity in the qualities of the schools for an ELC plan to be efficient in Texas.</p>
<p>In all honesty, an SAT score measures how well you take the SAT. I got a great SAT score, and I consider myself to be intelligent, but I don't use my SAT score as the reason for that, because I know plenty of other smart kids who didn't score as well as I did. BUT a high class rank usually shows that the kid has a high enough work ethic to keep on top of his studies. Yes, a lot of kids might drop off from being a high school hero to a UT zero, but these kids still have the work ethic to succeed at UT.</p>
<p>And if you look at the population numbers, the population IS tailing off. 2008 will be the largest graduating class in US history, and it will drop off after this year. UT's major problem with the increasing % of top ten kids is that, while the state's population has grown 20% since HB 588 was enacted but the number of places in the freshman class at UT has stayed the same. As the number of grads tails off, this will be a much more manageable number.</p>
<p>I agree the percentage is getting big, but the only solution I see is to increase the number of students admitted. I do not agree with taking away places from students who are in the top ten percent of their class. They have performed at the highest levels they can in their environment, and they have earned the chance to go to UT. Given the resources of a suburban public education for 12 years, or for a private school, many kids from urban or rural schools would seize that opportunity and do quite well in the new environment. Kids who would move from a suburban or private school after 8+ years in that environment would likely find that they have a better preparation than the rest of the students, and would succeed because of this, not because the students at the new school are less competent. While I realize plenty of qualified students are denied each year, I do not think that the students being admitted are unqualified.</p>
<p>And honestly, UT is probably in it's strongest state ever. The academics continue to see improvement every year, and the university's national and international reputation have seen it take a place among the elite public schools of the country. That wasn't quite so true 10 years ago. The university each and every year is truly fulfilling its constitutional mandate to be "a university of the first class," and I firmly believe that top ten students are helping, and not hurting this goal.</p>
<p>i dont think you realize how unqualified some of the students who get in are. My friend had a 1000 SAT, a 5.4 gpa, no curriculars, and was in the top 9%. i am graduating with double honors, 6.28 gpa, great extra curriculars, and a 28 ACT but was in the top 14% when i applied. I dont know how you can call him qualified loneranger. a 5.4 gpa would be considered abysmal at my school. and if you honestly think these kids are doing the best they can, you could not be further from the truth. i knew when i went there that as long as i got all B's i could got to UT. Alot of kids dont do well because they know they wont have to as long as there in the top 10%. i was one of them at one time. if anything this hurt me freshman year because i realized all i had to do better then were the lazy kids around me.</p>
<p>Rank is in itself a flawed system anyway, as pretty much every school you could pick a professor on all of your classes and end up with the easiest teachers to boost your GPA.</p>
<p>Some people in the top 10% just pad their GPA by taking easy electives like PE all 4 years instead of something more challenging like Health Science Tech. </p>
<p>Getting into the top 10% is about finding out who the easiest teachers and classes are and taking them. </p>
<p>Not saying everybody does this, but it happens.</p>
<p>
[quote]
I agree the percentage is getting big, but the only solution I see is to increase the number of students admitted.
[/quote]
Uhh have you been to Austin before? There is NO more room to expand. Unless they start teaching out of the Stadium.. you can't just allow more people into the school. There isn't enough on campus housing to accommodate all these people, nor is their enough competent staff members either...</p>
<p>How does he have a lower GPA but is ranked ahead of you? I'm sorry, but your logic seems flawed. And while extracurriculars do show that you are a complete person, they do not show that you are academically qualified. If his GPA is abysmal, how is he in the top 10%. And BTW, your school seems to have crazy grade inflation if you have kids with 6+ GPAs. And your argument makes no sense, because, at least at most schools, people don't compete to do as little work as possible and still get top ten percent. Maybe at the very bottom, but kids who are making good grades aren't going to risk that from every example I've seen of any high school.</p>
<p>I don't even know what Health Science Tech is. It sounds like a vocational class that non college prep kids would take for preparing to be a dental hygenist.</p>
<p>At least at most high schools, you can't pick a "professor." You are assigned a teacher, and have to deal with that teacher the entire year. And PE class isn't included in most schools' GPA, is it? At my school it's Pass/Fail. Most schools also weight grades so a harder class is worth more points than an easier one. In DISD, for example, a 100 in a regular-level class converts to the same as a 77 in an AP class.</p>
<p>The fact remains that there is no fair way to compare kids from across the state using GPA. Some schools use a 4.0 system, Westlake uses a 7 point system, some schools have a 100 point system, and some schools give kids averages like 6.58, which isn't top ten, and 5.4 which is. The only fair way to determine someone's credentials is to compare them to others who took the same academic curriculum. Now, UT could compare you just to the other UT applicants. But those tend to be from the top of the heap to begin with, so you would look very bad if you were the worst applicant to UT from your school. Using class rank lets UT know where your grades stand in comparison to others who have taken the same curriculum as you.</p>
<p>I'm sorry, but you can't complain if you aren't playing your system right. If your school penalizes you for taking honors classes, maybe you shouldn't take them. If going to UT is your dream, you need to take the steps necessary to getting there, which means graduating in the top 10%. Likewise, if you wanted to get in to Harvard, you would take hard classes and get As and get a 2300+ on your SAT.</p>
<p>UT is not obligated to use the same system as any other college for admission. UT's research has shown that class rank is the most accurate predictor of college success. Students entering UT have shown it in their performances in the university. If you ever peruse the UT website, there are loads of reports on the impact of the law. And they are almost all favorable to the law, because it works. Students from more high schools are represented, from more varied backgrounds. UT is not just the privilege of the suburban white kid, it is the urban black kid, and the Latino from the Valley, and the roughneck's son's privilege as well.</p>
<p>You can if you are resourceful. Look at Darmouth. They use a plan where you don't necessarily go just for a fall and spring semester, but go for 3 of 4 quarters each year, and only 3/4 of the student body is on campus.</p>
<p>UT has plenty of empty classrooms each class period. They don't need dorms--they aren't guaranteed. They don't need more parking, either.</p>
<p>I agree there is no more room to expand, but they aren't at 100% capacity. They cut back from around 52k to 49k about 5 years ago.</p>
<p>And plus, you can always build up if you have to.</p>
<p>But my solution is patience. If you wait for the numbers to go back down, there won't be any problem in admission. UT does not have any law obligating them to limit enrollment. They could shoot for 100k.</p>
<p>They could hold classes at JJ Pickle. They could develop the Breckinridge tract.</p>
<p>They have lots of options should they need them. But they don't. UT is fine the way it is, and will continue to be fine for many years to come.</p>
<p>The only reason Bill Powers is complaining is because the rich white people whose kids aren't getting in anymore are complaining, and people listen to money. If it weren't in place, you'd have rural and urban poor complaining that they were getting shafted. And nothing would be done, because they have no bargaining tools, such as money.</p>
<p>UT knows how many people is too many...Do you honestly think a money making institution would turn down the opportunity to make more money? How many things do you know of that are hundred percent efficient? I mean **** if we were able to make gas be like 95% efficient we could like totally like save wayyy more money.</p>
<p>I wouldn't be surprised if one of the reasons for the cutbacks was decreasing classroom quality. Do you have ANY understanding of how many crap teachers teach here, despite the rankings. In my first year here, I have had 3 of my 8 professors be passable. And one of them was Economics, which isn't even close my major. </p>
<p>You know what we have this park, we could build up from there too, ****, we could turn every square foot here into a 10 story building. </p>
<p>What do you mean there will be no problem in admissions. WHY would the university be so furiously trying to get rid of the top 10 percent rule, if they thought it would just die down in a few years?</p>
<p>Because rich white folk want it changed now.</p>
<p>And rich white folk get what they want.</p>
<p>EGADS! Not to point anyone out in particular but - just FYI</p>
<p>they're - they are
their - possessive case of they
there - (adverb or adjective) directional or in that place (noun) state or condition</p>
<p>edited to add</p>
<p>then - at that time
than - conjunction used in comparison</p>
<p>People, grammar is your friend!!!</p>
<p>I just want to make a quick comment to FoxShox who commented on the 1240 SAT score.</p>
<p>I had an 1190 and was admitted into UT with just 3 years of High School. I am white, male, middle-class. </p>
<p>In my opinion, the 1240 might have something to do with living abroad. I was an exchange student in Chile my junior year of High School and my English DRASTICALLY changed while living abroad.</p>
<p>Honestly, a 1240 is a great score.</p>
<p>And I agree whole-heartedly on how the top 10 rule limits creativity within the UT Austin community. Culture here is limited. Not many people bring innovative ideas, world-views, etc. to the table. I really feel left out sometimes. </p>
<p>But, you still find those amazing people who are just like you. It's a huge school.</p>
<p>Good luck to your son!</p>