Personally, I think there is something wrong with “playing the piano competitively.” Although there are lots of music competitions, and although I am far from being an expert on music, it seems to me that playing the piano is a form of artistic expression and a means of gaining insight into cultures and emotions other than one’s own, as opposed to an exercise in “winning.”
Since practically everyone on the thread has supported the idea of continuing in band, I think it should be noted that the value of participating in band varies from school to school. It depends a lot on the band director, the band culture, and the level of emphasis on marching as opposed to musicianship (or as a complement to it). There are still some high schools with hazing as a part of the band culture. This might not show up in the middle school band. I have never been in a school band. However, two graduates of the local high school have separately mentioned to me that when they were in their late 20’s, they still had nightmares about their band director. You might want to ask around about the experiences that your friends’ children have had in the band in the school where you are.
From your writing, I assume that you are an immigrant? How many years of schooling in the US has your daughter had? In terms of advice about option 2, what does 9th grade “Social Studies” cover? How familiar is your daughter with American history, the underlying concepts of American democracy, the Constitution, European history, economics from a market perspective, and other topics that many American children absorb without direct instruction? Depending on what Social Studies covers in 9th grade, your daughter may need the exposure to the material in this course, in order to do well subsequently. How much does she already know about the Spanish-American War? Does the name Rutherford B. Hayes mean anything to her? Could she provide a rationale for many historians’ belief that James Buchanan was our worst President? Does she know the contents of the 4th Amendment? Does the Miranda warning ring any bells with her?
You are lucky that it seems as though your daughter’s counselor is interested in offering options that will let your daughter move ahead in science, if she wants to. Many counselors oppose this. I think it would be a good idea to ask whether students have taken honors chemistry in 9th grade in the past, at your daughter’s school. Do you personally know of other students who have done this?
On the other hand, you are unlucky in that it seems as though the school requires students to pack in as many AP courses as possible, in order to raise their class rank. The recommendation to take gym class in the summer raises a red flag for me that the school is a “nutso” competitive school, with regard to course selection. (Do not use the term “nutso” in discussions with the counselor–I just mean that it seems to be way over the top.) If she takes gym in the summer, will this eliminate a non-weighted class from her GPA? If so, you should realize that there will probably be a lot of GPA gamesmanship going on in the school.
Because we moved just before high school started, and then again (twice) as sophomores, my science and math daughter didn’t get to move ahead. She had algebra in 8th grade, but just didn’t feel solid in it so took honors algebra in 9th grade. She also wasn’t placed into biology, but should have been. The teacher asked if she wanted to move into bio but 3 weeks had passed and she just didn’t want to feel behind so stayed in physical science. Anyway, by the time she finished the basic (although at an honors level) sciences and math, but the time she was in 12th grade she took honors physics, AP Chem, AP Statistics, and pre calc. She was very worried about not having had calc or AP Physics, but it hasn’t been a problem at all.
Most of the kids in her engineering college calc class had already taken either AP calc AB or BC, yet they tested into Calc I at college, same as she did. My daughter got one of the highest grades in her class. Her friend who tested into Calc II had to drop out, she didn’t have the basics. Same with Chem. It was easy for her because she has such a strong base.
Really, I think it is more important to get a solid base in math and science. I think, for most 9th graders (13? 14 year old?) taking honors bio, chem, math, social studies is just too much, plus expecting her to swim at the varsity level and actually have some fun in school. The PE requirement can probably be waived if she is doing swimming or marching band. My daughter did a Virtual School PE class (yes, online) and it involved her keeping a record of her exercising, a bunch of units on nutrition and health, and taking a CPR class on a Saturday. She probably did more than she would have taking it in school.
I vote for band and the experience of travel. That really can’t be replaced. Varsity swimming is good too, and I bet they’ll figure out a way for her to do both.
As a HS senior who’s been in band since 4th grade, definitely stick to music. Even a year off from an instrument can be very difficult to recover from. Plus, the opportunities for travel and the lessons band can teach you about hard work, responsibility, and time management are invaluable. And one last bonus is that her experiences in band can make for a great essay come college application time. One of last year’s graduating seniors, in fact, made it into Northwestern University partly because of his essay on how important band was to him and what he learned from it. Chemistry (or any other course added merely to ‘pad’ the college resume) should never come at the expense of something that your child is really passionate about/loves.
Music plays different roles in the lives of different students.
My two (now-grown) kids both played instruments–piano at first, and wind instruments later. One was completely uninterested in any time of competitive or judged activity. He said that for him, this would wreck the experience of participating in musical ensembles, which he considered to be about artistic expression and camaraderie. The other liked the idea of judged auditions (solo festival) and competing for spots in honors ensembles. She improved her playing skills greatly by participating in these activities. Auditioning successfully for honors bands also gave her the opportunity to play with other student musicians of her caliber, which she enjoyed very much.
Different strokes for different folks.
I know students who had to take a year off from high school band or orchestra because of scheduling conflicts. It was not difficult for them to come back provided that they continued to play the instrument during the off year – either in a community band or orchestra or by taking private lessons on the instrument.
If she loves band, she should follow her heart. If it conflicts with swim team practices then talk to both the coach and the band director. This can’t be the first time this has happened. The goal should not be to push her to pad her curriculum for the sake of having all these extra classes for a glossy college application. That can backfire in many ways.
I realize this discussion is a few weeks old, but my daughter did the exact thing the OP is proposing - she took both honors bio and honors chemistry this year as a 9th grader. They’re block classes, so one in fall and one in spring. She’ll have honors chem II and AP chem as a sophomore. This allows her to take AP Chem, AP Physics and AP Bio in 10th, 11th and 12th without doubling up. She was certain she wanted to take all 3, and we felt it would be easier to double up the sciences at the honors level than at the AP level. It’s been great so far.
Interestingly, her high school has all honors kids skip social studies their freshman year, unless they want to take AP Human Geography. They all end up taking Honors or AP Gov’t, AP U.S. and AP Euro, in addition to a required Personal Finance course and an Economics course. So, skipping SS one year doesn’t hurt a bit - everyone ends up with at least 4-5 social studies credits.
That having been said, I agree with all that these course and EC decisions should be based on the interests of the student, not on the parent’s desire to create the perfect applicant. I hope the OP and her DD were able to work this out to everyone’s satisfaction.
re: jcc. Your post is quiet helpful. It’s just what we will do: doubling science, keep the band and sport, skip the SS in 9th grade. D will do APUSH and AP CHEM in 10th. Things are going smoothly. Thank you so much for your input.
Skipping SS in 9th grade is often a state-dependent thing. It is very common in CA, for example, because the UCs only require 3 years of SS and the 3 years need to include a semester of econ, a semester of US Gov, and 2 years of history. Our high school doesn’t even have a 9th grade SS option as far as I know. (They have a college/career planning semester and a health semester.)
If the OP is not in CA, she should be aware of the state graduation requirements and the requirements of the state flagship. Also, some elite colleges expect 4 years of SS.
What is that supposed to mean? Are you bothered about her GPA?
Personally, I think that skipping core classes from 9th-11th grade (math/science/social studies/English) is a HORRIBLE idea but it seems that you’ve already made up your mind about your daughter’s schedule for the next 4 years. Have you already planned out her schedule for when she goes to YOUR dream school?
FYI, people at my school have done AP Chem, AP Bio, AND AP Physics without shoving aside core classes in the earlier years of HS. I think kicking out band during freshman year is also a bad idea.
At my school, people work up to the harder AP classes, they don’t race to them.
I think you should look at what social studies you are skipping. Is the material a rehash of what she’s already seen in middle school or is it new? Our 9th grade curriculum does not overlap with middle school; my daughter learned a lot in social studies this year and I know it will help her a lot when she moves on to the AP class. The AP history classes are widely considered to be some of the most demanding APs and I think it would be a mistake to skip a foundation which the other students will have and which the teacher may assume.
“For option 2. I concern about missing one year of social studies will affect her grade in 10th grade.”
It’s telling that you don’t care that she misses the material - you care about the GPA. It seems like you want to turn her into a math / science drone and you mistakenly think that’s the way to top schools. I think there are a lot of cultural differences between the U.S. and your home country that you need to understand to position your daughter most effectively.
My state flagship, which is not considered elite, requires 4 years of social studies. It’s not just elite schools that want that. Although I would guess most of them prefer it.
One of the things I like about my kids’ HS izs that they require a course in the 4 core subjects every year. I guess the OP woukdnt line that. But I think high school kids should be getting a good foundation in all the core subjects. There’s room to take extra courses in areas of interest but not by skipping tge others entirely.
Elite colleges want 5 core classes each year of high school (English, Math, Foreign Language, Social Science, Science). In addition, 1-2 classes of choice should reflect the student’s personal interests (especially in art, but it could be anything, and often it has to be requirements such as Health, Personal Finance, and PE.) During senior year, scheduling an “original” class such as Shop or Home Economics, or a “fun” class (ie., indicating that the student finds “fun”, ie.,for this student learning outside their comfort zone and outside the AP bubble is fine and exciting) is a good signal. If your daughter can continue Band all 4 years, it’d be more beneficial, especially if she’s good and can go to all-state (state-level is better than city/district-level, which is better than school-level). Considering the band travels internationally, it’d be VERY detrimental to her if she gave that up, especially for Honors Chem which she can easily take in 10th or 11th grade without any problem for elite colleges (whereas that level of band commitment can’t be easily replicated. Keep in mind that adcoms hate “drones”, little “learning robots” that all take the same thing.) Note that involvement in one activity at school/outside of school is positively reviewed. (Just club sports/outside orchestra does not “weigh” the same unless we’re talking national-level… which her school band seems to be anyway… so… really taking her out of band would be more detrimental).
Finally, if you have a native/heritage language, she can take the AP class right away, but top 25 universities/LACs prefer to see a “real” foreign language for 4 years in addition to that. It won’t get her turned down, but only taking 2 years in a heritage language, without the 4 years of a “real” foreign language, is seen as taking the “easy way out” and is frowned upon at schools of Ivy-caliber.
Just another parent agreeing that most colleges and universities expect to see four years in each of the 5 core academic areas – english, history, foreign language, math and science, even if they describe that as “recommended” rather than “required” for admission. If you are looking at college admissions this early, and I would agree that being sensitive to the 4 year schedule is appropriate, but over-managing it is too much at this time – then creating opportunities for your student to do what they love is essential – and that sounds like music/school band class. Not to mention, skipping band in freshman year could mean, depending on the instrument, that a student loses opportunities to progress through groups etc (for instance, my kid is a drummer, and freshman always wind up in pit. If he skipped freshman band, he would have been in the pit as a sophomore, and had fewer opportunities to get in the battery later). Music directors often look to indications of commitment in awarding “perks” to students, in terms of solos, opportunity for advancement etc. Skipping the program first year does not start the student off on a good foot.
I’m still puzzled why an ordinary science sequence doesn’t work for this student? Most kids take bio freshman year (Honors or not), Chem sophomore year (Honors or not), then AP Bio or Chem junior year and AP Physics their senior year. Maybe I missed something . . …
If there is work to be made up, or work to be done to accelerate, online classes or summer classes would be a preferable context for that in the sciences, I would think, than giving up band.
Also, the adjustment to high school is a big one, and creating a cushion in the student’s day when they get to relax and do what they love – music, art, etc. – is a big help for their mental well-being.
It seems to me that, regardless of her personal motivations, the OP has arrived at a solution that allows her daughter to do Band, her sport, and take additional science classes. What am I missing here? All of you seem convinced this is a horrible idea. She has never indicated that her daughter doesn’t want to take extra honors science classes. I know that, in our case, my DD is adamant she wants to get through AP Bio, AP Chem and AP Physics. I’m happy about this because I know it’ll look good on her apps and improve her GPA and class rank; she’s happy because she loves science. It’s a win-win.
There are also many disparaging comments about the level of course “management” by mom. I’m not sure about your schools, but we were required to develop a four year course plan for our kids in the 8th grade, and the student, counselor and parents all had to agree and sign off on it. There’s very little room for deviation from that plan, given the number of prerequisites, etc., that are required for upper level classes. Her district may be similar.
It’s a little unusual to see the level of dog-piling in this post from a group of parents usually supportive of kids’ taking on challenges. You’ve only heard mom’s side. Her dd may very well be in complete agreement.
They want 5 academic subjects each year of high school, and they want a certain number of years in each of these disciplines, but there’s no particular need to have one class in each discipline each year or to continue taking classes in a discipline if you already have plenty and would prefer to take something else.
My daughter completed AP Spanish and AP BC Calculus in 11th grade. In 12th grade, she took a rigorous set of courses (she could hardly help it – she was an IB diploma candidate), but those courses didn’t include any foreign language or math. The earth didn’t open up and swallow her whole, and the top-20 university that accepted her Early Decision didn’t bat an eyelash.
A 9th grader has not completed the required social studies classes. She likely hasn’t taken any high school social studies. Not at all the same thing as a student who has already reached AP level and chooses to go no further.
@Marian: Foreign Language and Math are judged in terms of level reached rather than number of years, so that if the highest AP level is reached, it’s considered 4 years.
So, if your child did
she had reached Level “5” and was fine. (I assume that Spanish is not your native language and thus isn’t your child’s heritage language.) However, I should note that it’s often preferred for a gifted math student able to take BC in 11th grade to continue with math in the 12th grade, preferably calc3/diff.eqs/linear algebra.