A.B. Duke vs. Harvard

College Search & Selection
1

Hi everyone,

I know there have been some similar threads in the past, but I was wondering if the advice still held true for my situation.

Currently, I’m looking into majoring in Public policy (or Government at Harvard) and Biomedical Engineering. While I think that the BME department at Duke is superior, Harvard is also not full price for me (I’m probably going to have to pay between 25-30k a year, which is difficult but manageable for my family). To make matters more complicated, I’m not sure whether I will pursue a PhD or med school in the future, but I certainly will attend grad school. Is this a clear decision or should there be something else I should be looking into?

2

FWIW: Duke is often referred to as The Harvard of the South.

For biomedical engineering, Duke for free is clearly the better option.

3

Thank you very much!

4

fwiw, Duke is the source of the “Harvard of the South” moniker, and they have been pushing it relentlessly for years!

Your paths are strikingly different, and the years after undergrad are also different. BME for undergrad needs to be started pretty much from the beginning, b/c there are so many requirements.

If you go PhD for BME you will need a good GPA, but it is looked at more in context, and your research work during college will be an important variable. Your PhD will also be fully funded (ie, no cost to you, and a healthy stipend to live on)

If you go PhD for public policy at a high end place (eg Woodrow Wilson, Kennedy, etc.) you will also be fully funded (though the stipends are typically a little less generous than in engineering XD), but they typically want relevant work experience- usually several years- before you apply. That work experience is typically very badly paid, because the employers tend to be non-profits- and there are a lot of people who want the experience. If you have a lot of debt that may be a difficult option, because the salaries are typically just about enough to live on, with not much left over for servicing your debt.

If you go med school, you need high grades, and BME is not a grade-friendly course. No, med schools will not give you a break for the fancy name, and most likely not for having a tough major, either. Med school is, obviously, very expensive, so if that is a serious possibility take the path that will leave you the least debt.

Both your choices are super choices, and you can get anywhere you want to go from either place- but debt will follow you, and shape your choices for at least a decade (probably more) to come. It can be hard to imagine what that will really be like from where you are now- but pretty much everybody on CC over 30 knows somebody who has taken jobs they don’t prefer, nursed their old car for years, lived with parents/friends/roommates, etc. into their 30s, because they need the money to be able to live and pay of student loans. Even with good medical / law / other degrees.

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Just saw this on another thread: “My sister who is a 46 year old urologist is still paying off her med school loans”.

6

Thanks a lot! For me, public policy is just a side interest (so it might become a minor in the future). But I’m definitely weighing the relative worth of a BME PhD and an MD (with all the accompanying debt). Your input really helps me in my decision.

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I don’t see why Harvard would be in the running if paying a little over 100K total would be difficult.

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The AB Duke program gives you access to an elite university within an elite university. For resources, networking, post-graduate scholarship opportunities, etc. it is very hard to beat.

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^ Yeah, even without the cost differential, I’d give the edge to the AB Duke. Add in the cost differential and the fact that paying for H would be difficult and it’s hard for me to see why this is a tough decision at all.

10

OP what wonderful choices. You must be an exceptionally gifted student. As such, you could go to U Wyoming and be a Rhodes Scholar or accepted to Hopkins or H for med shcool.

Focus on where you feel most comfortable or excited to attend. And finances matter. You’re smart enough to know this yourself.

As an aside, you know that for med school your gpa really matters.

Harvard is traditionally known for being a bit more relaxed towards grading.

Duke has a reputation for being a bit more intense and competitive than H.

This is only observational and not first hand.

And I am sure students and grads from each will differ in that opinion. Who knows. Just the “word on the street”. It could be bs.

Anecdotally , my opinions above are shaped a bit by my wife and FIL. Both H grads. Though in the early 70s and late 90s. They believe that Deerfield and w’s day school was more stressful and demanding than their time at H. Although they worked their tails off there as well.

Good luck and congrats again!

11

First of all, Congrats to OP!!

The fact that $100k is “difficult but manageable” suggests OP’s family can afford it but is debating whether Harvard’s extra prestige and educational benefit are worth $100k.

Putting prestige aside I sense that most CCers here pick AB Duke over Harvard even without price difference. I imagine one reason could be that most of them do not have direct knowledge of what Harvard College offers compared to Duke AB. Even for a BME oriented concentration, for which Harvard is not best known, Harvard College has something to offer that others like Duke AB may not. For starters, Cambridge probably has the highest concentration of biotech firms, with world’s leading experts and faculty affiliated with Harvard. One such example is Harvard/MIT’s Broad Institute where the hottest biotech research and commercialization Crispr take place. Harvard College freshmen can be enrolled in a 12 student seminar at Broad Institute studying Crispr directly under world’s leading authorities. My kid was in one those classes and it was an experience that you may not find anywhere else. Not only well known faculties teach small class and labs themselves, they also take a keen interest in students future studies and careers. After the afternoon seminars, the dozen students would join the professor for dinner at Michelin star restaurants with more interactions and learning. Students are encouraged to invite the professors for dinner too and the College pays for it.

Though my kid is not pursuing a career in BME I can see such mentoring, support and research opportunities for BME students as unparalleled at Harvard. Durham, NC may be an up and coming biotech hub, but its unlikely to rival Boston/Cambridge anytime soon. The same can be said about Duke Medical School vs Harvard Medical School.

If Public Policy/Government is also OP’s interest, the College and HKS would provide endless opportunities. Every week you would see politicians and world leaders coming to campus holding seminars and engaging students and faculties. Even US Congress holds their orientations at HKS, which is right next Harvard College.

I know that to many people on CC Harvard College doesn’t have much substance; it is just a name for prestige obsessed parents and students. But to someone who had experienced it, Harvard College offers something unique that you may not find anywhere else, such as easy access to most prominent faculties, richest resources for students support and guidance, and collaborative and ambitious peers, some of them will be future leaders in their fields.

Are all of these unique offerings worth extra $100k to OP? I don’t know. But one thing is clear from my experience: when visiting the schools and asking the students there why they made the choice, OP will likely hear the students say “…because xx school is better than Harvard!”. Of course at Harvard you are unlikely to find someone wearing such enthusiasm on their sleeve. And you almost never hear its student or parent promoting Harvard, except perhaps on this anonymous forum.

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@jzducol This is the exact type of response I was looking for! Since I had to attend the A.B. finalist weekend, I heard a lot of comparisons to and rebukes of Harvard, but not much from the other side. I’m visiting within the next week to learn more because, like you said, a lot of H alums and representatives have been rather discrete when it comes to boasting of their opportunities.

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@Buthahvahd It’s not like Duke doesn’t have small group seminars led by eminent faculty members or public lectures given by prominent political figures. Harvard Medical School is obviously excellent but it hasn’t produced a home-grown Nobel laureate in the past decade. Duke Medical School has had two homegrown laureates in the last 7 years. Definitely no slouch.

If you think that Harvard is going to pay for you to eat a Michelin star restaurant after every class, you are probably mistaken. I would love some more information on this specific program. All elite schools have programs where you can join a faculty member for a meal. That is not exclusive to Harvard by any means.

The Broad Institute is phenomenal but you can easily get involved in things like genetic engineering at Duke. One of CRISPRs pioneers (George Church) happens to be a Duke alum and several Duke labs are doing outstanding research (example: https://pratt.duke.edu/about/news/single-crispr-treatment).

If you prefer Harvard, you should definitely attend. We just want you to make an informed decision.

Recent lectures at Duke:

https://today.duke.edu/2019/02/former-white-house-chief-staff-gen-john-kelly-speak-march-6
https://sanford.duke.edu/madeleine_albright
https://today.duke.edu/2018/11/rand-paul-how-libertarian-philosophy-can-connect-divided-partisanshttps://today.duke.edu/2018/10/chairman-joint-chiefs-staff-speak-duke-nov-5

@collegemom3717 FWIW, Duke doesn’t remotely care about being known as the “Harvard of the South”. The South simply doesn’t have another university that is consistently ranked among the top 20-25 globally. Duke is a very unique place and it’s not the Harvard of anywhere. If anything, Dukies would rather it be known as the Stanford of the East :wink:

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@JenniferClint, I am perfectly prepared to accept that Dukies would like to be known as the Stanford of the East these days- but I was there when Duke was indeed selling itself as the “Harvard of the South”. At one point it was even part of the tour spiel. Past may be gone, but not forgotten :slight_smile:

In truth, I really agree with you that Duke is very much it’s own self. One can argue the toss that either is any better/less than any other university, but the argument will be within very narrow margins and based on specific criteria (for every Michelin lunch there are student complaints about the quality of some of the TAs in core intro classes; the NC research triangle is not an ‘up and coming biotech center’ it is very well established and can hold it’s own in any point by point comparison, etc.). I think that Harvard and Duke (and Stanford!) have very different vibes, and that some (many?) students might have a clear preference- and if so, that should be a key deciding factor.

And I disagree with people who assert that, in absolute terms, either undergrad degree is worth $100K more debt than the other. Unless $100K is not a meaningful metric in your household that should also be a major decision factor.

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@Buthahvahd If the post promoting why Harvard is the clearly better choice is “is exactly what you are looking for” , why in the world are you asking us to waste our time giving you reasoned advice. Please enjoy your time at Harvard and try to make difference in the world!

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@privatebanker Just to be clear, I’m 95% set on AB. I was just looking for the opposing perspective in favor of Harvard so I could make a more informed decision. However, I’m truly grateful to have received your advice and I’ll certainly take all of this into account!

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OP. Well that’s good info to know. If you are leaning that much and wanted counter balance. That makes sense. I missed that you had that level of commitment to ab duke in the previous posts. My bad. You’ll make a good decision because no bad one exists in this problem set.

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No, it was also kinda my fault, as I meant to sound impartial to hear both perspectives. As such, your response was perfectly reasonable and I should have been more clear. And again, thank you all for your advise - I think I have enough info to make a decision now (A.B. unless a financial miracle happens from the Harvard financial aid office ?).

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@Buthahvahd “the BME department at Duke is superior” ???!!!???!!!

BME: http://www.shanghairanking.com/Shanghairanking-Subject-Rankings/biomedical-engineering.html

Harvard: http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-University-Rankings/Harvard-University.html

Duke: http://www.shanghairanking.com/World-University-Rankings/Duke-University.html

Methodology: http://www.shanghairanking.com/Shanghairanking-Subject-Rankings/Methodology-for-ShanghaiRanking-Global-Ranking-of-Academic-Subjects-2018.html

An old thread: http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/international-students/233003-survey-relative-prestige-of-oxbridge-hypsm-internationally-p1.html

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I am someone who, like @jzducol , believes Harvard is really special, and has some qualities that Duke lacks. But. Her presentation is very one-sided. There is a ton of biomedical research that goes on in the Research Triangle in North Carolina. The difference (if any) between that and what’s going on in Cambridge and the Boston area is not going to matter to any undergraduate, even a really bright one. And what may matter is the extra level of shininess and high-level support that the A.B.Duke provides.

I don’t think it’s necessarily an easy choice for Duke, but it sure isn’t an easy choice for Harvard, either, even without taking the money into account. Very few people ever turn down Harvard to go anyplace other than Yale, Stanford, Princeton, or MIT, but one of the main reasons people turn down Harvard for a place like Duke – which to start with is an amazing university, that gives up something to Harvard, but not that much – is the advantages that come with a prestige scholarship like the A.B. Duke. I think if you look, historically people in your position split about 50-50 which way to go.