"A Bathroom of Her Own" in Inside Higher Ed

JHS · December 24, 2009, 4:55pm

Let me make clear, again, at least for myself, that I do not see co-ed bathrooms as having intrinsic positive value. For all kinds of reasons, I believe the default generally is single-sex bathrooms, and that’s fine. But in lots of real-life dorm contexts, it is not physically/economically possible to offer everyone a reasonably convenient single-sex bathroom, and I don’t see such positive value in single-sex bathrooms as to make me feel there is an overwhelming necessity to preserve that “option” because some people would prefer it, either. (I am going to bracket for the moment the trans issue and its effect on this, which in most contexts is purely theoretical.)

In theory, in such contexts, most colleges’ rules make single-sex the default that any objecting student can enforce. In practice, I think there is often a lot of social pressure not to enforce that rule. That doesn’t outrage me. I really think human beings are capable of adapting.

Baelor, putting things in all caps does not make them more convincing. Men and women are intrinsically different as regards things like childbirth and nursing, neither of which takes place in dorm bathrooms much. Tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people are sharing bathrooms daily between men and women without tripping over those intrinsic differences you think are so obvious. If you are going to claim biological necessity for single-sex bathrooms, you have to explain it better.

berryberry61 · December 24, 2009, 5:11pm

Oh please. I am sure what I say is not going to be politically correct but so be it.

<ol>
<li>The rules shouldn’t be built around a very small subset of trans gendered individuals</li>
<li>What do these “Trans men and trans women who are beginning to transition may be uncomfortable using a gendered bathroom” do outside the dorm where all public restrooms are either male or female?</li>
<li>To say colleges need to have co-ed bathrooms in dorms because “Some people do not identify as men or women” is liberal thinking gone amuck. I guess this is why perhaps the only place we really see this in this country is in colleges who are far more liberal in some of their policies than the rest of society (and if you look at many of the examples listed, many are far on the very liberal side of the equation) </li>
<li>If you are going to argue that trans gendered people can only use a co-ed bathroom or it will negatively affect them, the same argument applies to those individuals who do not like sharing a bathroom with the opposite sex. The argument cuts both wyas.</li>
<li>I agree with mom2three - not all kids have ever shared a bathroom with ANYONE, much less someone of the opposite sex. MANY kids may not be comfortable with coed bathrooms in the dorms. And I would wager the vast majority of these kids identify themselves as a male or a female. </li>
</ol>

If 100% of the students on a floor are happy with co-ed bathrooms, fine. But why all the hate towards those who think co-ed bathrooms are a terrible idea. Why does one person have to sue because others are forcing her to adhere to co-ed bathrooms which she finds upsetting?

quaere · December 24, 2009, 5:36pm

Okay. But I’d assert these things:

that trans’ folks need for appropriate bathrooms is no less important than the needs of students who aren’t comfortable in all-gender bathrooms;
that colleges have an obligation to provide safe housing (rooms and bathrooms) for all students, acknowledging that many have different sets of needs;
that, believe it or not, there are dorms and halls where the population of trans students is larger than the population of students who are strongly opposed to all-gender bathrooms.

I don’t think the rules should be designed specifically around the needs of trans students. I do think that to the greatest extent practical, we should seek to make sure that everyone has a safe space to pee, whether that means gendered bathrooms, all-gender bathrooms, or both.

Hold it as much as possible, and plan their daily routine around access to safe bathrooms. You may laugh, but bathroom anxiety was a large part of my life for the three-ish months that I spent in transition. On the other hand, it was a pleasant surprise to discover that there are actually a lot of non-gendered public restrooms that people don’t even notice. It’s hardly true that all public restrooms are either male or female.

I can’t speak for any other poster, but let me be clear about where I’m coming from. I acknowledge that gendered bathrooms are the norm here, and that many people strongly prefer them. That preference is alien to me. But at the end of the day, I think that people who need gendered bathrooms to feel safe have just as much right to be accomodated as people who need all-gender bathrooms to feel safe.

The student in the article had initially requested all-women’s housing. Instead, she was placed on an all-gender hall that undoubtedly included folks who had a strong preference for all-gender housing and bathrooms. The school’s failure was not allowing that space to exist it was assigning her to live there in direct violation of her request.

DonnaL · December 24, 2009, 5:56pm

Berryberry, you could say that the rules shouldn’t be built around a very small subset of disabled individuals who need wheelchair access. And, yet, the law requires that this be the case. Is that liberal thinking gone amuck?

And I’m not suggesting that the rules should be built around trans people. But I do believe that they’re entitled to reasonable accommodations, and to a safe place to pee.

For the most part, the reason that trans men or women who are beginning to transition may feel uncomfortable in a gendered bathroom has nothing to do with general discomfort with the concept of single-gender bathrooms. It has to do with the substantial danger of harassment and even violence for trans people (particularly trans women) who may not be completely passable/blendable, and are perceived as being in the “wrong bathroom.” People whom I personally know have been dragged away by the police in handcuffs, thrown in jail cells, and been beaten and/or raped, for committing that great sin of needing to pee and using the bathroom consistent with their gender identification to do so. And harassment isn’t a problem just for trans people. A year or so ago, a woman with short hair and no makeup wearing masculine clothing – who did not identify as trans, just as a butch woman – was physically ejected from the ladies room by a bouncer at the Caliente Cab Company, a well-known Mexican restaurant in lower Manhattan, because someone had complained that there was “a man in the bathroom.” Showing her drivers’ license with an “F” on it did no good. Suit was brought, and a settlement involving a public apology was reached.

This sort of thing happens all the time. Even in places like New York City, which have laws specifically prohibiting discrimination against trans people in public accommodations.

So, yes, it’s entirely understandable that trans people (and other people at risk of harassment) might want to avoid taking that risk by using an all-gender bathroom or a single-occupancy bathroom. Outside the college setting, where multi-person all-gender bathrooms are a rarity, people tend to try to find a single-occupancy bathroom, or hold it in until they get home. (I’ve known people who go hours and hours without using a bathroom, out of fear of what might happen if they use either single-gender bathroom: they’re presenting as female and would be in danger if they used the men’s room, but aren’t always perceived as female and would be in equal danger if they used the women’s room. If they have no choice, they would probably opt for the women’s room on the lesser of two evils theory: in the women’s room, they’re at risk of ejection or arrest, but, barring police brutality, nothing more. In the men’s room, they’re at risk of violence from other patrons.)

So, God forbid that in a college setting, where people are supposed to be reasonably safe, they might prefer a co-ed bathroom where it doesn’t really matter what gender they’re perceived as, and they can be sure that there’s a safe place to pee. Particularly if there aren’t enough single-occupancy bathrooms to have one always available if necessary.

Sure. Just liberal thinking gone amuck. Please. I’d appreciate it if you’d stop sneering. And, by the way, the adjective is transgendered (or transgender; either will do). Not “trans gendered.”

By the way, as I’ve said before, most trans people, kids or adults, do identify themselves as male or female.

The comment about “all the hate towards those who think co-ed bathrooms are a terrible idea” is a complete straw man. There’s exactly one poster on this thread, so far as I remember, who’s philosophically opposed to single-sex bathrooms as the default idea, and it seems to me that he’s the one who’s been getting the brunt of criticism here.

I’ve made it very clear, repeatedly, that I think co-ed bathrooms are fine for those who want them, and, in fact, are necessary, at least in terms of optimal convenience, if you’re living on a co-ed floor that has only one bathroom on it – as is true for the dorm my son is in now (which was built in the 1920’s), and was true for some of the dorms when I was in college 35 years ago. Especially when there are facilities insuring adequate privacy in showers for those (like me) who don’t like being at risk of exposure to other people regardless of gender.

But I also said that I think that if a college student wants to be on a single-sex floor with single-sex bathrooms (at least, de jure!), or even on a co-ed floor that has multiple single-gender bathrooms, that’s fine too. And a question that I don’t think has been addressed a single time in this thread (as I remember) is how real a problem “forced co-ed bathrooms” actually are. Other than the case that inspired this thread, and even assuming that the claims made in that case are true, can anyone give a single example of a college where students are forced to use co-ed bathrooms without their consent?

If not, then the entire discussion is a straw man.

Finally, JHS, I do happen to prefer the configuration at my office, where there are separate men’s rooms and ladies’ rooms on my floor. It has nothing much to do with being particularly shy about bodily functions around guys. (Obviously, public nudity doesn’t enter into the equation!) I must confess that I’m shy about bodily functions around anyone; if I go into the bathroom and there’s someone standing at the sink, and I go into the stall, I usually wait until they leave before I actually do anything! That’s always been true. If I’m already in there and someone comes in, it doesn’t matter, because they don’t know who I am! Sorry, but I’m neurotic about that kind of thing. Possibly because of 32 years of Crohn’s Disease.

Really, it’s more that I see the ladies’ room at work as a refuge or a respite – a place where I don’t have to deal with men for a few minutes (90% of the attorneys at my firm are men), or have them make unreasonable demands on me; a place where my boss can’t find me if he’s mad at me about something!

I suspect that if I were back in college, and privacy in showering were assured, and I didn’t have to see naked guys cutting their toenails, I might not mind that much having a co-ed bathroom. But I’ll never know. (I never lived on a floor with a co-ed bathroom when I was in college; there weren’t that many of them.)

Yes, JHS, the differences between men and women are important to me. (And that has nothing to do with claiming an innate genetic preference for pink or for playing with dolls instead of trucks as a child. I don’t even like pink!) But having single-gendered bathrooms isn’t particularly high on the list in terms of significance to me. Privacy in general is more important to me. I’d be perfectly happy if all public bathrooms were single-occupancy. As is already true of most restaurants. But I realize that that isn’t a very feasible goal, economically.

Baelor · December 24, 2009, 6:13pm

I am aware. I consider adding italics or bold tags unnecessarily when I can more easily add emphasis through caps. I’ll assume you just weren’t thinking about that possibility instead of assuming your attacking my credibility based on an irrelevance.

Let me know when men start bleeding out of their **es every month and have to dispose of the relevant “masculine products.” Let me know when women start disrobing (as men do, according to posters in this thread) in the restrooms after growing **es. Let me know when the genders start peeing the same way, worrying about the same health issues like testicular cancer, etc., and then maybe I’ll understand what you mean about the differences not being so significant.

There’s no “biological necessity.” I’m just saying that your assertion that a desire for single-sex bathrooms is a personal preference, not a morally superior and justified position.

I’m also saying that you are incredibly narrow-minded when you say that a personal preference, which you have not successfully and empirically dismissed as fundamentally inaccurate, is “not worthy of respect.” In other words, you are really being pompous and haughty, and undeservedly so.

DonnaL · December 24, 2009, 6:29pm

Peeing the same way? Even people with male anatomy are entirely capable of peeing sitting down! Anyone with male anatomy (whether or not they identify or live as men) who shares a bathroom with women should, in my opinion, either pee sitting down (especially if they’re tall enough to peer over the top of the side wall), or make sure that their aim is good, and that they avoid such disasters as peeing onto the floor of the neighboring stall! And put the seat down, too. Not that people with vaginas (again, whether or not they identify or live as women) are exempt from the bad aim problem. As I said before, hovering can be a big problem. Hence all those cutesy signs you find inside the doors of stalls in ladies’ rooms reminding people, in rhyme, to clean up after themselves. Good advice for everyone.

JHS · December 24, 2009, 6:47pm

Baelor, you do a nice Rush Limbaugh imitation, but please stop putting words and ideas in my mouth.

As I have tried to make clear, multiple times, I do not have a preference for co-ed bathrooms. At most, my preference against them is so weak that any other reasonable factor will overcome it. Like almost all of the people here who have lived in some kind of co-ed bathroom regime, I don’t think it’s a big deal, but I don’t think there’s anything intrinsically wrong with single-sex bathrooms.

There are two things that I do have problems with, and that I see as potentially philosophically wrong. (I’m not sure, I’m still thinking it through, but that’s my instinct.) One, the easy one, is giving too much regard to spoiled teenagers who have never had to share a bathroom. Single-sex or co-ed, M, F, or other, I don’t care: young adults going to college ought to be able to handle shared bathrooms, unless they have some severe disability.

The more difficult and contentious issue is that I DO object to fetishization of cultural sex differences, treating them as good in and of themselves and therefore important to preserve and even nourish. And my instinct is that one subset of that is “I can’t use a co-ed bathroom because I don’t want (boys/girls) to smell me or hear me.” (Which, just to be clear, is quite different from “I can’t use a shared bathroom because I don’t want anyone to smell me or hear me.”) I am troubled by unquestioning acceptance that there is a meaningful difference between doing something embarrassing (and not sexual) in the presence of girls and doing the same thing in the presence of boys. Not that I deny people feel that way – of course they do – but because I wonder whether that doesn’t take a step too far in making sex differences matter where they shouldn’t and don’t have to.

Almost nothing turns on this question in the great co-ed bathroom debate, except that I don’t feel compelled by the argument that co-ed bathrooms are horrible because women may have to poop or change tampons when men (who can’t see them) are somewhere in the vicinity, and I have been willing to argue that others shouldn’t feel compelled by it either.

mimk6 · December 24, 2009, 7:08pm

I have been saying this for years. I cannot understand why men feel that urinating is some kind of target sport when so many of them are clearly not Olympic material.

DonnaL · December 24, 2009, 7:19pm

JHS, I honestly believe that the primary reason many (or maybe most) women prefer not to share a public bathroom with men – and I’m generally referring to strangers, not to fellow students who live on your floor – doesn’t have that much to do with embarrassment at the prospect of men hearing or otherwise detecting their exercise of bodily function. (People who are embarrassed about that are, I suspect, embarrassed to be to be heard or otherwise detected by anyone, and I’m not sure the marginal additional embarrassment is all that great.)

I think that the preference – again, out in the world at large more so than in college – has its basis not only in discomfort, but in fear. Fear of assault, fear of men in general, whatever. Fears that are neither irrational nor unjustified, whether the individual woman has been personally victimized or not. Fears I share myself. And fears that I think need to be respected. So long as they aren’t exploited by people who love to engage in scare campaigns to whip people into a frenzy in order to defeat laws that would prohibit discrimination against trans people. And in order to (as it’s usually put) “keep men out of women’s bathrooms.” Ignoring the fact that trans women aren’t men. Regardless of their operative status. (Which nobody else should ever have to be aware of in a bathroom anyway. Unless we’re going to start posting guards at every public ladies’ room door in the country to check people’s genitals.) And ignoring the fact that despite all the fictional horror stories involving men disguising themselves as women in order to go into women’s bathrooms or locker rooms to assault or spy on women, that danger is essentially a fantasy. Nobody’s ever come up with a case where something like that actually happened – let alone where trans women, or MTF crossdressers, went into a women’s room for that purpose. Rather than, say, for the purpose of using the bathroom! A man bent on assaulting women doesn’t need to put on women’s clothing to do so, or to hide himself inside a public bathroom. And he wouldn’t be stopped by a gender sign on the bathroom door, or a law prohibiting trans women from entering women’s bathrooms, in any event. Nor would a law prohibiting public accommodation discrimination on grounds of gender identity or expression exempt anyone from the consequences of illegal actions inside a bathroom. (Of course, people whipping up hysteria about the “bathroom issue” never talk about the logical consequence of their position: that trans men, whom they view as women, would be kept out of the men’s room and forced to use the women’s room. So you’d have all these burly, bearded, balding trans guys with bulging muscles and tattoos – a stereotype to be sure, but I’ve met a number who fit it – required to use the ladies’ rooms. So much for wanting to protect women from feeling insecure. Please.)

Baelor · December 24, 2009, 7:31pm

An ad hominem by association. Very clever, but ultimately ineffective, as you offer not a shred of evidence to support this ridiculous assertion.

Nor did I ever claim that you did. But then again, you don’t actually read my posts, do you?

You seem to be operating on just as many assumptions as anyone else. You conveniently place to burden on those who support this “fetishization,” which for some reason you believe contains the belief that there is justification for single-sex bathrooms, without actually supporting the position that there is no difference. It doesn’t work that way.

You also continuously bend the truth and/or set up very obvious strawmen with statements like these:

I don’t believe more than a couple of posters have mentioned “embarrassing” as a factor in their belief systems. You are also trivializing the issue by making it too broad. This is about ONE, very specific issue – restrooms. There’s a privacy issue, and there’s a comfort issue. Male and female restrooms serve fundamentally different purposes because the biological needs of males and females are different in many respects. It goes beyond “embarrassing,” and thus your statement is, as previously mentioned, a strawman and not worthy of discussion at all (as it is logically invalid).

Finally, I note that throughout all of this you STILL have not retracted your statement that a preference for single-sex restrooms is one that is likely not worthy of respect.

Please stop spewing crap and start providing evidence, or at the very least philosophical justifications for your similarly vague and intangible arguments.

neltharion · December 24, 2009, 7:50pm

Not getting into the debate, but here I would point out that the first ad hominem attack came from Baelor.

I’m not at all saying that JHS’s returning volley is at all mature, but if you’re going to be throwing out attacks on personal character, then be prepared to receive them, and don’t complain about them when you do.

That is all.

emeraldkity4 · December 24, 2009, 8:01pm

I will change the subject with a joke since we are talking about bathrooms.

A few weeks ago, my mother was in the hospital, and her mind was a little foggy because some of the medications she had been given, were interacting with each other poorly.
My daughter ( who is a teacher)was telling her a story about how she was trying to change the behavior of some of the older elementary kids she was working with, especially around language. She was trying to get them to stop saying " crap", because she thought it was a swear word- but I told her I didn’t think it was.
For the voice of authority, she asked my mom her opinion & grandma told her that it was slang, not " a four letter word".
However, grandma ( who ordinarily did not swear at all), said,
" well, it does take the place of a swear word, because crap, means the same as SHI**."
:o

Baelor · December 24, 2009, 8:19pm

The fundamental difference is that I’m willing and able to substantiate my statements; he is not. I can and did point to evidence to support that statement, as I should because it is a strong one.

And I don’t see how I’m narrow-minded for suggesting that students be allowed to choose single-sex or co-ed bathrooms, and that these decisions are personal preferences and should be respected.

I’m sorry, is that an intolerant viewpoint now?

neltharion · December 24, 2009, 8:49pm

It is common courtesy to refrain from resorting to personal attacks on character when engaging in a debate regardless of the actual content of the argument. If his points are not substantiated, then say so. There is no need to call him narrow-minded, pompous, or haughty.

As for me, I never once suggested any narrow-mindedness. I apologize if I implied it at all in my post, as that wasn’t my intention. Though the topic’s essentially a non-issue for me, for what it’s worth, I actually agree with you that personal preferences should be taken into account.

Baelor · December 24, 2009, 9:05pm

Noted, and agreed. However, as alluded to in my previous posts, my statements are not simply an attempt to dismiss his argument, but also, and in truth, an attempt to demonstrate to JHS the vehement nature of his statements and the way he is perceived as a result, at least by some posters.

This was my own assumption, for which I apologize – I assumed erroneously that according the bolded statements apply to me just as to him; that was not your intent.

Weskid · December 24, 2009, 11:23pm

I agree with DonnaL’s #164 post in its entirely. I think that there are several very valid feelings being expressed in this thread:

–Gender neutral bathrooms can be a huge comfort for some trans folks, especially (though not only) when they are not fully transitioned. They can also be a huge comfort to people who identify as queer in various other ways (including those who don’t consider themselves on the gender binary at all).

–There are many students (such as myself), who, although they identify as their biological sex, don’t find gender neutral bathrooms disconcerting at all. These students are totally content to live on a hall with only gender neutral bathrooms, whether it be because of respect for queer students, or because of convenience factors. Indeed, my boyfriend’s hall freshmen year had both, and I used the gender neutral bathroom because the girl’s bathroom was another ten yards from his room, and I was lazy! I just didn’t care.

–Some people ARE uncomfortable with gender neutral bathrooms, and would prefer single sex bathrooms. IMO, this is perfectly reasonable.

I think the argument that gender neutral bathrooms are unnecessary, or bending to the will of a small segment of the population, is insulting and insensitive (not to mention that it ignores the fact that many students at these schools DON’T have a problem with it). Although it is totally a school’s prerogative to decide if this is something it is okay with, I, at least, would much prefer a school that is understanding about this kind of thing (since it tends to translate to understanding on other fronts as well). Which is why I only looked at very liberal schools (and, I will admit, and am I very liberal person, especially on social issues).

OTOH, I also think that people who prefer single-sex bathrooms should be able to have access to those. And honestly, at most schools with gender neutral bathrooms, this seemed to be the case. If a student can’t find an arrangement that makes them feel safe when going to the bathroom, that is a problem, period. Which is why I like that my school has lots of options (including a set of dorms that has almost entirely single-person bathrooms, and upperclassmen housing that is all apartments and houses with single person bathrooms).

I think DonnaL’s question is a very good one:

I have certainly never heard a complaint about this at my school. Despite being very pro-gender neutral bathrooms, I think it is ridiculous that the student in the original article could not be accommodated.

vicariousparent · December 25, 2009, 12:26am

I would also like to know the answer to the above question. The article linked in OP seemed to imply that the girl was in fact being forced to accept a coed bathroom. Is this a common thing?

Are any of the students reading this thread (or kids of parents reading the thread) being forced into a coed bathroom by college policy?

JHS · December 25, 2009, 1:30am

These sentences contain all of what I object to in Baelor’s arguments.

When I originally said provocative things, it was in response to two arguments, and no others, among the many that have been put forth here: (1) preserve the mystery, and (2) it is especially bad for women to do noisy, smelly things around men. I saw them both as treating preservation of a feminine mystique as a positive good, which is something wholly different from privacy or fear. Without in any way denigrating other rationales for preferring single-sex facilities, I said, strongly, that I didn’t buy the mystique argument, and in fact thought it was morally wrong.

Now. reasonable people can disagree with that, and some have. And I have expressed *some doubt about my own lines, since I do not have a bad reaction to modesty in general. I have repeatedly said that there are valid other concerns, while wanting to explore (with myself, and others) how deep the “mystique” strain ran. And I have understood that to be disturbing to some. But what I have NOT argued is that the rationales I don’t like are the only rationales anyone has for preferring single-sex bathrooms.

So I was not “trivializing the issue by making it too broad”. I think I was identifying a broad issue among the many arguments around a trivial issue (which is what any issue concerning bathroom distribution ultimately is).

Then there’s yet another repetition of this idea: “Male and female restrooms serve fundamentally different purposes because the biological needs of males and females are different in many respects.”

That really deserves to be savored in its wrongness. Male and female restrooms serve fundamentally different purposes? Can anyone name one of those fundamentally different purposes, other than perhaps changing tampons? And how about those differences in biological needs? Which ones? The need of some to sit down to pee? The need of others to aim if they are not going to miss the toilet? Fundamental biological differences like that?

Some posters have pointed out how unusual co-ed bathrooms are in the public sphere. True enough, but in the private sphere – where we live, just like in a dorm – co-ed bathrooms are the norm, not the exception. I am well over 50, and there may be a total of 60-70 months in my life (none of them in the past 30 years) when I was not sharing a bathroom with at least one female. Biological differences notwithstanding, the same equipment serves everyone’s needs just fine. Does anyone think otherwise?

Baelor · December 25, 2009, 1:54am

You subsequently generalized those arguments with the following statement:

I included the entire paragraph so I wasn’t misrepresenting your quotation.

Note that the paragraph itself is flawed for reasons that I outlined in my direct response to it. The primary issue here is that the “embarrassing” nature of the toilet may have to do with gender-specific issues – menstrual cycles, morning sickness in the case of pregnant females, erections, or what have you. As someone mentioned, even nakedness is more embarrassing in front of the sex to whom you are in general physically attracted.

So you are indeed trivializing the “embarrassing” argument, setting up a strawman by focusing on only one aspect of it (gender-neutral bodily functions), and then setting said strawman on fire and generalizing your critique of that viewpoint with that justification.

Women using the restroom for personal hygiene related to their periods IS a fundamental use of the restroom. If one such difference exists, which you readily acknowledge, then my statement is completely accurate.

Sex-related purposes to the restroom will also differ between genders. Unless the ladies on this thread regularly find anal lubricant tubes in the showers, I’m pretty sure the uses of the restrooms vis-a-vis sexual activity (and consequences thereof) will differ.

See above, where you justified my statement. It is worth noting, however, that seemingly trivial issues may actually be relevant in the context of comfort or cleanliness. For example, the girls in my hall constantly complain about the ubiquitous hair all over their bathroom. My bathroom has none.

emeraldkity4 · December 25, 2009, 2:39am

* the biological needs of males and females are different in many respects.*

?
The coed bathrooms in my daughters dorm at Reed college did not have urinals. They had stalls- with tiled dividers if I remember correctly ( very important for grout poetry)
They also have janitors/housekeepers/dorm parents who help them keep it presentable.

Everytime I had ever been in the bathroom there, they were cleaner than the ones at Nordstroms.
;)

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