A Bit Shocked

<p>I just took the liberty to browse the Harvard Forums here on CC. It was eh... a bit shocking. Its funny to see how vicious applicants are. I've been coming to the MIT/Caltech forums here for a year+, but I have never seen some of the crazy stuff they have on the harvard forums!!! I thought I had a shot at MSHYP, but since when did everyone's parents start making <$20k? How come everyone is an underepresented minority? </p>

<p>Its also a bit puzzling how a vast majority of people from my school want to go to Harvard. Even all the Siemens/STS winners are like HARVARD!!! Is it because of the name? I've always wanted to go to MIT because of the articles I have read about the awesome things they do/engineer/create/dreamup(yeah, tech review propaganda ;) ). </p>

<p>Just a bit shocked. Reminded me of pirana's!</p>

<p>Yes! Nurture that anti-Crimson sentiment! You can feel the MITness pouring into you already! Fear of URMs leads to anger, anger leads to hate [of harvard], and this hate leads to MIT...</p>

<p>=p</p>

<p>I've heard that for Harvard, it's the "getting" in part that's the real fight, which might explain why they're so cutthorat. Also, I've noticed that a lot of Harvard students - not disrespecting all Harvard students in any way - can amount to nothing more than being a Harvard student all their life. You don't really hear "MIT grad" (except in the context of breaking vegas) or "Princeton Grad" or "UChicago grad" or anything, but everywhere you go, you see someone touting the fact that he's or she's "Harvard graduate." Some people evidently fail to grasp that in a few years, it really doesn't matter.</p>

<p>Yeah, I have to agree with you Sagar. It seems everybody has a hook like being URM or low-income or desperately wants one in the Harvard forum. I'd take MIT over Harvard any day though :).</p>

<p>(At the risk of being attacked by any non-science-school-attending trolls... :)) I actually do believe the student environment (and presumably the prospective environment) at MIT is far less cutthroat and competitive than at many/most/all? other highly elite schools.</p>

<p>First, MIT is just hard, so there's much more incentive to work together than against each other. When you're struggling with a problem set at 2 AM, you need way more allies than enemies. (I also think the General Institute Requirements contribute to this cameraderie, since large groups of freshmen are taking the same classes and can work together on problem sets.) There's also sort of an "us vs. the professors" attitude rather than a "me vs. you" attitude. Hey, it's not the guy who sits next to you in 5.112 who's making you get a bad grade -- it's the professor and his/her evil exams!</p>

<p>But moreover, MIT is just a very tolerant and accepting place. I don't know why. (My HASS concentration is anthropology, and theories are swirling around my head right now, but I don't have one that I can really back up with hard data.) Maybe it's the diversity of the student body. Maybe it's because we're all too absorbed in technical subjects to really care about divisive social issues. Maybe we were all picked on for being nerds in elementary school, so we thrive in the intellectual acceptance at MIT.</p>

<p>Maybe science and engineering majors are just better people than non-science and engineering majors, and since MIT has a concentrated population of science and engineering majors, we're just nicer here. :P</p>

<p>Mollie, I come home every day, check CC because I sort of got addicted while my son was in the admission process a year ago. He is now living happily in Burton-Conner and will probably major in Biology. I look forward to every one of your posts. I love your clear thinking, clear speaking and most of all your sense of humor. I've been meaning to say thanks. So thanks.</p>

<p>look for me there is just one basic difference between the two:
MIT is for people who want to work, who have their priorities and really love whatever they want to study.
Harvard is for people who really just want a name of a big ivy as their alma-mater and want prestige and not the substance.(it is also for the people who want to do arts and stuff).
Coz as you say "even intel/siemens want to go there". Then according to me these guys do not love science, they just participated in the competition because of the prestige and now they are looking for a college just on the basis of prestige (although I am in no way saying that MIT is less prestigious)</p>

<p>and zoogies I beg to differ on the part where you say no one poses to be a MIT grad. Not true. Although the effect is a bit different. Haven't you seen all the sci-fi/thriller movies where to get the science dude an immense amount of respect just the fact about attending MIT is put in. :)</p>

<p>Allright, look guys. I think we ought to dispense with the Harvard-bashing here. You all seem to be acting as if every single Harvard person has some sort of character defect. </p>

<p>Look, I know many people at Harvard, and no, I would not characterize them as people who are not interested in substance, or are just prestige-whores, even if they are Intel/Siemens winners. They are all perfectly nice and respectable people and certainly don't have any of these character defects that are being insinuated here. Look, Harvard is a very very good science school. I don't see anything wrong with a person who likes science choosing Harvard. </p>

<p>Molliebatmit, sorry to put you on the spot, but I think we have a good example here. She might be going to Harvard next year for grad school. Is that because she doesn't have substance, or because she doesn't like to work or because she's just a prestige-whore that goes around dropping the H-bomb on people for the rest of her life? I don't think so. Harvard is a darn fine school in the things that she wants to do, so what's wrong with her wanting to go to Harvard for those things? It's not just her. Plenty of MIT students choose Harvard for graduate school. Is that because all of them have some sort of character defect?</p>

<p>And to zoogies. Truthfully, I have rarely heard of any Harvard student or Harvard graduate going around touting the name of the school. Yes, I've seen it happen, most notably at bars where guys are trying to pick up women, but it's a pretty rare event. It's been far more common to see Harvard alumni actually try to CONCEAL where they went to school. For example, of all the Harvard people I know (and I know quite a few), I have seen all of them do the 'Harvard-dodge' whenever they are asked where they go to school. It goes something like this:</p>

<p>Q:"Where do you go to school?"
A:"I go to a school on the East Coast."
Q:"Oh really, where?"
A:"I go to a school around Boston"</p>

<p>Often times the conversation ends right there, people assuming that he's talking about BC or BU. However, occassionally, the questioner persists:</p>

<p>Q:"Where around Boston? BC? BU?"
A:"No, it' a school across the Charles"</p>

<p>Etc. etc., and after playing catch-me-if-you-can for awhile, the answerer may finally answer with "Harvard". Although I have seen certain of my friends skillfully weasel their way out of doing even that by completely changing the subject. </p>

<p>Lest you think this is pretentious, let me tell you that I've never seen students from any other elite school like MIT, Stanford, Yale, and Princeton feel the need to do any sort of dodge (well, maybe the Yalies). In the Bay Area, I know plenty of people who will loudly and proudly proclaim that they are Stanford graduates, even to the point where they will deliberately wear Stanford regalia around the city of Berkeley. You want to talk about pretentious behavior, now THAT'S pretentious behavior.</p>

<p>Meh, Harvard people are okay most of the time. (I will admit to having worries that, if I get into Harvard for grad school, that I will not be "Harvardy" enough and no one will want to sit with me at lunch or something.)</p>

<p>I dodge the question of where I go to school when I'm at home in Ohio. Usually "I go to school in Boston" will suffice, because they've seen the Boston College football team on TV.</p>

<p>Not "Harvardy" enough? Ha! Have you seen some of these Harvard graduate students, especially in, say, math or physics? Let's just say that some of them are just as nerdy as anybody at MIT, both in terms of intellectual brilliance and in terms of social awkwardness. Napoleon Dynamite has nothing on them.</p>

<p>I don't know. I just think that a lot of people apply to Harvard for the wrong reasons. Of course there will be true geniuses applying, but for the most part ... yeah.</p>

<p>When I think of MIT/Caltech, I see students cutting there way through insane homework, having fun, doing research, and just being themselves. Its kind of like what my current school is like. Except a lot of people take courses just because they look good.</p>

<p>I don't know why, but it takes me twice as long to read the science book. I think it is because I try to figure out exactly why things work, and play around with ideas in my mind. Sometimes it frustrates me how everything in science requires high levels of mathematics. I mean, eventually I will learn that math, but until then, I just feel locked out by some complicated equation. I have tried to figure them out, but they just lead on to more complicated math, until i just get frustrated.</p>

<p>Have you guys ever had that feeling?</p>

<p>So I see in the news today that Alan Greenspan's proposed replacement as head of the Fed is Dr. Ben Bernanke, who completed his PhD in economics from MIT.</p>

<p>However, I also see that Bernanke did his undergrad at Harvard. So because he went to Harvard, I wonder if that means that Bernanke doesn't really like to work, doesn't have his priorities straight, doesn't love what he studies, is just interested in prestige, doesn't care about substance, and likes to go around telling everybody he's a Harvard graduate, and all the other vile vituperations that have been thrown around in this thread about Harvard graduates. Since he went to Harvard, all those things must be true about him, right? </p>

<p>Bernanke isn't the only one. Plenty of highly prominent people in the MIT community were actually educated at that 'other' school in town. Nobel laureate Paul Samuelson, who almost single-handedly built the MIT econ department to elite status from nothing, studied at Harvard. Robert Solow, another of MIT's Economics Nobel laureates, also studied at Harvard. So did MIT's latest Nobel winner, Richard Schrock. MIT Biology Professor Robert Horvitz, Nobel winner in 2002, has degrees from both MIT and Harvard (just like Bernanke). </p>

<p>So what should MIT do about all these Nobel-prize winning profs who, just because they have degrees from Harvard, must mean that they are all lazy, purposeless, prestige-mongerers who have no priorities, don't love what they do, and don't care about substance? I guess MIT should get rid of all these profs immediately because they are clearly an embarrassment to the Institute.</p>

<p>sakky: They've clearly proven themselves. </p>

<p>However, at the high school level, how do you differentiate between a boy who spend all his time working on a research project that he did by himself, and a kid who just went to a lab and mooched off of a professor? Honestly, I am pretty sure anyone can write a paper once you work at a lab for a couple months. My school has 6 winners(semifinalists in siemens), and I've seen their projects. A lot of them mooched off of professors at big institutes. Do you guys honestly think thousands of high schoolers come up with these amazing projects themselves? I've been thinking about this quite a bit, and it seems a bit like stealing. You join a lab, do a little bit of work under the guidance of a mentor(who could probably do the whole thing himself), and write a paper, often using the project that the mentor came up with. Did you come up with the idea yourself? NO! Could they have done this project all by theirself as if they were in their mentor's place? NO, they don't know everything they need to! Did they write the paper without substantial help from their mentor? NO.</p>

<p>This probably doesn't describe the majority of the winners, but I do know this happened frequently. It angers me because so many kids just join "labs" where they do work over the summer, and then write a paper. I think that the most important part of research is learning to ask the right questions. Being able to come up with the project is more important than getting results.</p>

<p>/rant.</p>

<p>sagar you are right about everything.
But dont you think admission folks at elite colleges would also know about this.
They dont accept anyone with research..this is why they tend to see whether you have done a research in a field where you have been involved (a random research one in math, other in Bio third in chem wont help, but three research projects in maths will).
This is also the reason why colleges want an essay on the research project and not the paper. trust me if you haven't done or experienced something yourself you can never impress somebody else with that thing.</p>

<p>Eh... what if I switched fields? Like I did an AI project, but now I want to do protein folding... would that look really random?</p>

<p>sakky clearly thinks Harvard is just slightly better than life itself, so please forgive his posts ;-)</p>

<p>Many of my very best friends go to Harvard, and they're great people, just like my friends at MIT and Caltech.</p>

<p>Still, no matter what sakky or anyone else says, the following is true: compared to MIT or Caltech, the Harvard undergraduate atmosphere is a lot more focused on social prestige and extracurricular achievements -- sometimes to the detriment of academic focus and passion. That's not necessarily bad, but Harvard has a lot more of the "nonsense" that many intellectuals despise -- such as well-defined social pecking orders (often based on wealth), backstabbing for club presidencies, etc. You just don't find that at MIT or Caltech.</p>

<p>Of course not all Harvard students like this or participate in it -- most don't. But there's still a lot more nonsense.</p>

<p>sagar: no!!!!! stick to what you truely love!!!!!</p>

<p>Gandhiji: ??? </p>

<p>Eh, I emailed a couple of post-docs at MIT with my abstract, and some other stuff, asking for guidance. Hopefully I will get a response ;)</p>

<p>
[quote]
However, at the high school level, how do you differentiate between a boy who spend all his time working on a research project that he did by himself, and a kid who just went to a lab and mooched off of a professor? Honestly, I am pretty sure anyone can write a paper once you work at a lab for a couple months. My school has 6 winners(semifinalists in siemens), and I've seen their projects. A lot of them mooched off of professors at big institutes. Do you guys honestly think thousands of high schoolers come up with these amazing projects themselves? I've been thinking about this quite a bit, and it seems a bit like stealing. You join a lab, do a little bit of work under the guidance of a mentor(who could probably do the whole thing himself), and write a paper, often using the project that the mentor came up with. Did you come up with the idea yourself? NO! Could they have done this project all by theirself as if they were in their mentor's place? NO, they don't know everything they need to! Did they write the paper without substantial help from their mentor? NO.</p>

<p>This probably doesn't describe the majority of the winners, but I do know this happened frequently. It angers me because so many kids just join "labs" where they do work over the summer, and then write a paper. I think that the most important part of research is learning to ask the right questions. Being able to come up with the project is more important than getting results

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, I COMPLETELY fail to see what the heck that has to do with anything. Ok, so some Intel/Siemens winners didn't do all that much work. Fine. So what? What does that have to do with Harvard specifically? So you don't think that any of those people ever go to other schools like MIT? </p>

<p>Look, if you have a problem with some of these winners, then you should condemn ALL the schools who admit these people. Why single out Harvard? </p>

<p>
[quote]
sakky clearly thinks Harvard is just slightly better than life itself

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Come on. I never said that either.</p>

<p>What I believe is that we don't need to be going around putting down other schools. Being proud of your school - that's fine. But putting down other schools? Why do you need to go there? There's a very good chance that sometime in your life you may end up working with or working for people who went to that school that you were putting down. Every top school, whether it's MIT or Caltech or whatever, have profs and graduate students and postdocs who came from Harvard. Heck, you may even end up going there yourself for later schooling. Who knows? </p>

<p>
[quote]
But there's still a lot more nonsense.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And I have to object to this word also. Sure, to you it may be nonsense. But to other people, it may be important. </p>

<p>Let me give you an example. It's about Yale, not Harvard, but it's the same theme. In 1946, an African-American named Levi Jackson entered Yale, one of only 3 African-Americans in the entire school (undergrad+grad) at the time. This was still the 40's, and Yale (and the rest of the US) was still a highly racist society. Many students and profs wanted nothing to do with him. However, Jackson endeavored to gain social acceptance by engaging in many of the activities that you might call 'nonsense'. By the time he graduated, Jackson was a tremendously popular student on campus, having not only joined the Yale football team (being the first black football player ever at Yale), but ultimately becoming captain of the Yale football team, rewriting the Yale football record book. But not only that. He was also a strong student, having been elected to various academic honor societies. Furthermore his pursuit of social acceptance was highly successful - he was ultimately tapped for Yale's Skull & Bones society, (which he ultimately turned down). Still, he was the first black person to ever get tapped for Skull & Bones. </p>

<p>Think about that - a black man in the late 40's getting tapped for Yale's Skull and Bones. This was a time when many US hotels, restaurants, stores, and transportation systems, mostly in the South but also many in the North, refused to serve blacks. This was when Jim Crow still ruled large swaths of the country and before anybody had ever even heard of the phrase 'affirmative action' - in fact, most schools actually practiced a form of "anti-affirmative action" by deliberately discriminating against minorities. It would be years before Brown vs. Board of Education, or the Civil Rights Act or any of these social changes that we now take for granted. Heck, back in those times, it was perfectly socially acceptable for whites to refer to blacks by the 'N-word'. Yet Levi Jackson, a black man, was so socially successful that he was able to get an invite to Skull&Bones. </p>

<p>How many of us could have done what he did? How many of us could have accomplished similar things as a black man in the 40's? </p>

<p>Note, he pursued social acceptance not just for 'fun', but because he felt he would need it. He ultimately became a civil rights pioneer in US business, becoming the first black executive at Ford and being responsible for changing Ford (and by extension the entire US auto industry) from lily-white organizations into highly racially diverse companies. He was able to accomplish that precisely because he had social acceptance in both the white and black world and so could act as the bridge between them.</p>

<p>Hence, my point is, some of you might think that climbing that social ladder is just a bunch of nonsense to you. But other people think it's important, for a variety of reasons. It certainly wasn't nonsense to Mr. Jackson. In fact, he would never have been able to achieve the things he did without climbing that social ladder. True, Levi Jackson wasn't an intellectual in the sense that he didn't get his PhD and spend his life trying to discover something. However, I think we can all agree that what he did accomplish was highly important in its own right. Hence, you can't simply assume that intellectual success is always more important than social success. Some of the most important advances in world history have come not through intellectual breakthroughs but through social breakthroughs. Just because the Civil Rights movement didn't involve any intellectual breakthroughs, I don't think anybody would assert that it is nonsense. Would you? </p>

<p>My point is, there's no need to throw around words like 'nonsense' or other such invectives. If something's not important to you, then fine, it's not important to you. But it may be important to other people. The next great alumni from MIT or Caltech may be recognized not for intellectual reasons but for social reasons. Hey, who knows? It might happen.</p>

<p>sakky, your rhetoric is weak. Many underprivileged people have used prizefighting -- back when it routinely killed people -- to make it big in an unfair world and then turned their success into noble efforts for the weak.</p>

<p>That doesn't mean prizefighting is great or even respectable. It certainly doesn't mean that I should respect a school where it is a major part of undergraduate life. Good outcomes can come from bad situations. Beating people up for money is still nonsensense, just like social elitism, even if it sometimes helps people.</p>

<p>By the way, that sure was a lot of words to make such a bad point.</p>

<p>guys lets just drop it.</p>