A college degree matters, the college it's from is not that important

Parents Forum
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<p>annasdad;</p>

<p>You obviously never read the study. the D&K study is probably the most misquoted study of all times. It is also probably one of the most poorly designed studies. </p>

<p>There is simply no college by college analysis, just crude groupings. In their original study, D&K actually admitted that if you used school selectivity as opposed to SAT scores there actually was substantial effect of attending a more selective school everything else being equal. They even found that tuition correlated with income. The more you pay the more you earn. They had a tough time explaining that one. </p>

<p>For a more detailed critique of the methodology, this much better designed study shoots a hole through the D&K study. It demonstrated that taking merit money from a less selective college did not compensate for the loss of income over the long run from attending a more selective college. (See note 27)</p>

<p><a href=“Page not found | Harvard Kennedy School”>Page not found | Harvard Kennedy School;

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<p>In summary, most respondents listed their own college (where they enrolled) and one less selective college which they did not attend.</p>

<p>There were very few respondents that did the reverse, i.e. list their own college and one more selective college which they did not attend. Among the most selective colleges the numbers were virtually zero. </p>

<p>With such a strong selection bias, there is simply no way to draw conclusions on students that aren’t even part of the study.</p>

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<p>"The more you pay the more you earn. "</p>

<p>-Not sure about that. What if you went for free on Merit Scholarship and then went to Med. School. Are you going to earn less than your classmate at Med. School who graduated from Harvard UG where he paid full price? There are many other examples, like employers are paying…etc.</p>

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<p>Oh my, a study by Harvard professors that purports to show that Harvard is worth the money. Certainly no possibility of bias there.</p>

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<p>I want to throw in another couple of cents, here. </p>

<p>I think it’s silly to deny the advantages of an elite institution. I don’t think anyone here would make such a claim. You’re being taught by professors at the tops of their fields, and in some cases, even by Nobel Laureates. Your peers are very intelligent and driven – and many of which are decently connected in some way. It’s an environment where there’s a lot more upward pressure on the metrics for success. You’re practically swimming in it, every waking moment – but you’ll find that environment at any elite institution, and even at other selective universities.</p>

<p>Once you start looking at less-selective schools, that pressure isn’t as tangible. You aren’t necessarily being taught by the best of the best, the material isn’t as rigorous, the competition isn’t so fierce, and the connections are harder to come by. The school obviously matters in this way.</p>

<p>But the point I’d like to make, here, is that upon entering freshman year, I was already being surrounded by some of the most ambitious, smartest people I’ve ever met. Four years later, many of them have completely torn through what the school had to offer. Had you placed these students at a lesser school, they would have dominated it just the same.</p>

<p>Despite that domination, would they be as successful? It’s debatable. I know that had I gone to a state uni instead of Wharton, it’d be a lot harder for me to sell myself even with a 4.0. An elite degree is still a signaling device, at the end of the day. Even if I were just as intelligent after Penn as I would be after State U, it’d still be harder to land interviews when all employers have to go from, much of the time, is the reputation of your school and your performance relative to that reputation. Is a 4.0 student from Random State U going to be worth the salary investment over a 3.4 student from Harvard? It’s not always an easy call.</p>

<p>I think what makes it all so confusing is that college costs can wildly vary even within the same selectivity bracket. If Georgetown offers you 80% aid but Yale only offers 30%, many might still go to Yale anyway even though Georgetown is still a top uni that opens many of the same doors Yale does.</p>

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<p>That was one of the unanticipated results of the D&K study. Obviously, here they found a correlation which may or may be true in specific cases. On “average” students who paid more in tuition got a higher return. The tried to explain with greater investments in infrastructure, smaller classes, better teachers… This is more a statement about private versus public universities. Many parents on these boards argue that LACs which are uniformly private and expensive provide a better education than cheaper state colleges. There are always exceptions.</p>

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<p>You sure about that? When I look at 90%+ graduation rates, I wonder how rigorous and challenging the material is. Especially when I read, from a long-time HYPSM professor:</p>

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<p>[The</a> American Scholar: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - William Deresiewicz](<a href=“http://theamericanscholar.org/the-disadvantages-of-an-elite-education/]The”>The American Scholar: The Disadvantages of an Elite Education - <a href='https://theamericanscholar.org/author/william-deresiewicz/'>William Deresiewicz</a>)</p>

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<p>This study has nothing to do with Harvard which is typically cheaper to attend for nearly everybody than most lower tier colleges. It just shows that it is often misguided to give up selectivity for a short term benefit. Sometimes, the trade-off may be well worth it. </p>

<p>The good thing about science is that results are open to criticism. It just happens that the D&K study has not held up well to peer review.</p>

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<p>At least empirically, I’m sure. My Acct, Stat, and Fnce courses were many magnitudes harder than the equivalent classes my friends were taking at less-selective colleges. </p>

<p>That requirements/due-date quote is a bit misleading, I think. Due dates, in my experience, have been pretty strict. Missing them means having some deduction taken away, and that’s assuming the prof will even let you turn in the late assignment (sometimes if you miss something, you get a 0, no questions asked). Extensions are tough to come by and you really need a good reason for them – simply being overworked is an insufficient justification because EVERYONE’S overworked. Classes that grade for participation aren’t kidding, either – if you aren’t in class, you’ll get marked down for it. Not all classes take attendance, though.</p>

<p>I’d disagree that elite institutions don’t help you ask the big questions. If anything, I feel like all they <em>did</em> was ask big questions. You take big questions and chop them down into every detail you can cover.</p>

<p>My gripe is that as a student who had to pay for his own education, I could have probably gotten the same deal at a lesser-ranked, cheaper school that was still in the same tier of selectivity. I wouldn’t give up Penn, though, for a lesser-ranked school like UVA (which asked for a lot more money from me than the private elites did).</p>

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<p>Folks-the Princeton study was updated in 2011. Read it. Some same and some different conclusions. I linked it above.</p>

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<p>legendofmax, not sure what your “gripe” is. YOU chose to go to Penn when you knew you had to pay yourself. You probably got a good deal? I had a son who decided to go ED instate to UVa because he didn’t want to take out more loans to go to a place like Duke or an Ivy. We made it clear he would have to take out more loans if he wanted to go out of state to a private(this was 2005 before the new financial initiatives at alot of schools). We all make choices. As it was, he came out of UVa (a lesser-ranked school as you say) with $18,000 in unsubsidized Stafford loans which he paid off within a year of graduation. We just felt he should pay for a portion of his education-that was our personal choice to require that.I doubt that you are the only person out there who has ever had to pay their way through college. I did it well over 30 years ago.</p>

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<p>barrons</p>

<p>The Princeton study has been updated as you say but this is not a published piece of research and it has not gone through peer review required for publication. Your link was to a working paper. There are still many issues with this work.</p>

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<p>sevmom: My situation is admittedly a bit of an anomaly, but yes, I chose to go to Penn. It actually wasn’t a great deal in the end because my surviving parent (my dad died right as I was going to college) acquired assets (after I began attending) that murdered my aid a great deal. </p>

<p>Going to UVA in-state will obviously net you a better deal than if you’re out of state. For an out-of-stater like myself, UVA cost more than Penn (even after the aid got slashed by a large margin). </p>

<p>And school 30 years ago was a lot cheaper than it is today.</p>

<p>Apologies if my response is a bit on the blunt side, but my point is that some schools open more doors than others. I still think UVA is a superb school. But I’d be lying if I said it was comparable to what you’d get at a top, private elite – especially when costs are considered.</p>

<p>“With $18,000 in unsubsidized Stafford loans which he paid off within a year of graduation”</p>

<p>This is again contingent on circumstance. Not everyone can pay off $18k in a year.</p>

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<p>The authors have tried to address some of the contradictions and criticisms on their original study. The fact remains that the data set that was the basis for these and many other studies (the National Longitudinal Survey from the Mellon Foundation), does not support any the broad conclusions that D&K have drawn. As pointed out by several other authors using the same identical data set, the statistically insignificant number of students admitted to elite colleges but actually choosing to attend a lower ranked colleges made the creation of a control group for these elite colleges impossible. As an example, they could not draw conclusions about students admitted to Yale or Princeton but attending Penn State for instance (all schools part of the survey), because no such students could be found in the database.</p>

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<p>For every person who A) gets accepted to an elite school,B) be able to afford to attend the elite school,C) rant and rave that it is ridiculous to pay that much and reject the acceptance…I can assure you without question there will be many families who will gladly take the acceptance regardless of costs…i find most people who complain about costs and say those schools aren’t worth, MOST of the time can’t afford the school to begin with…</p>

<p>Once again, many threads are about those ridiculing costly schools…BUT i have yet to find one ridiculing secondary and tertiary state schools which have abysmal graduation rates and probably leave students that attned them with greater debt issues vis-a-vie income from jobs they get with said degree</p>

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<p>legendofmax, I’m very glad your top, private elite worked out well for you. Going to UVa worked out quite well for my son. He enjoyed the social scene there and bigger time athletics so it actually was the best school for him. It’s great that there are so many choices out there.</p>

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<p>General discussion and all kind of statistical data have no sense after you consider requirements of specific field and personality and wide range of interests of specific applicant. Ranking and such is the last to be considered. Misery (because of feeling that you do not belong there) will produce misearble results even at the very top college. Also, if any kind of Grad/Med/Law school is in plans, the cheaper free option (that fits your student otherwise) might be the best option. Then you can help paying for that expansive Med. School, because you did not pay for his UG, he will be greatful forever. promise.</p>

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<p>If you read the update they found that schools APPLIED to was just as good or better factor as choosing a lower ranked school and more common. Many apply to highly ranked schools but don’t get in–even with comparable stats. They saw it as a measure of aspiration and having high goals which helped later in their success.</p>

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<p>Perhaps because the hundred of thousands who attended those kinds of schools, successfully, don’t fill up Internet message boards bragging about themselves and their schools?</p>

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<p>UVA is pretty darned elite – much more so than most state flagships. Not quite HYPSM elite, but then, neither are most of the top private schools.</p>

<p>My daughter works for a company that recruits almost exclusively from top schools, but their definition of top isn’t limited to HYPSM. UVA graduates are well represented there, along with graduates of Ivies and other top private schools such as Wash U.</p>

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<p>Thank you,Marian, I had a very similar thought to that statement but decided to just not get into it on this thread. Glad you did though!</p>