A Conundrum.

International Students
1

<p>Hi! I'm an international student currently in India. For those who don't know, the admissions coordinators from Ivy universities who come to our school say that under the Indian high school education system, an annual percentage of 85% is very good for the Ivy Universities.</p>

<p>So, here lies my problem: My dad is getting posted to Brussels, Belgium on official work for a period of three years. As you might imagine, I will be completing my 12th grade in Brussels.</p>

<p>Now, my academic scores from 9th, 10th and 11th are 88%, 90%, 82% respectively. I slacked a bit in 11th, but hey, 11th is tough ;) In India, students have to choose a particular stream (Science, Commerce, Humanities). I chose Science stream which includes the subjects: Maths, Physics, Chemistry, Economics, English.</p>

<p>I took my SAT I on May 7, 2011, and I'm expecting 2100+ I'm also currently studying for my SAT Subject tests (Math II and Physics, a slight chance of Chemistry also). I intend to give AP tests next May.</p>

<p>At my new school, - which I'm yet to join (starting 12th grade from August) - I'm being provided with two choices: International Baccalaureate (IB) and Advanced Placements (AP) classes.</p>

<p>Now, as you may know, in IB, a student needs to choose 6 subjects, Science (Physics), Humanities (Economics), Student's-choice (Chemistry), Two languages (English, French). Here lies the dilemma, you see, I studied French as a third language from grade 4 through grade 8; as a second language in grade 9 and 10. You can imagine the how less I'm acquainted with the language as a subject. I'm worried that I might not do well with French as a language. However, I'm quite comfortable with taking the AP classes, because I think I would be able to do better in one year with AP curriculum than with an entirely different IB curriculum.</p>

<p>We all know that the most selective colleges explicitly state that a student should take advantages of the most difficult classes provided to him/her which at ISB - and generally - is the IB curriculum.</p>

<p>Do you understand? I want to do my best in grade 12. Overshadow my 82% in grade 11. But IB would be difficult to get high marks in because of French, whereas AP is much more manageable considering that I would be in a completely new environment with only one year to adapt.</p>

<p>So should I go with AP or IB?</p>

<p>Thanks for reading this behemoth of a post, and helping me out :)</p>

2

<p>Wait i’m confused. If you spent all of those years learning french, a french class should be a piece of cake.</p>

3

<p>Well, let me clear your confusion, here’s the break-up of the French curriculum:</p>

<ol>
<li>4th Grade : Numbers 1-100</li>
<li>5th Grade : ER Verbs</li>
<li>6th, 7th, 8th Grade : IR verbs, RE verbs, irregular verbs, 8 tenses.</li>
<li>9th Grade : A little grammar</li>
<li>10th Grade : A little more grammar and a few more tenses (a total of 12, I think)</li>
</ol>

<p>This hardly qualifies me for studying French, in grade 12, as a first language. You can imagine the level of naiveness I have regarding the rules of sentence construction, grammar, etc of French.</p>

4

<p>85 % is not * very good *. Certainly not in the case of boards. For 11th, yes.</p>

5

<p>Scored a 90% on boards. As you may know, I was part of one of the only batch to give the board, administered by CBSE to get grades.</p>

<p>I got A1 in Maths, Science, Social Sciences, English and Computers. Got a B1 in French. So you can imagine… how bad I’m at it. By the way, my board percentage is 91.2% (9.6 CGPA; and the certificate I got by CBSE says that to calculate the percentage, multiply the CGPA by 9.5).</p>

<p>85% was the base line for consideration</p>

<p>Though I’m sure I would have scored more than 91.2% if we had got marks instead of grades, in the boards :)</p>

6

<p>If you are truly exceptional as demanded by the ivy’s then you should take up IB and get great marks and show that you are truly exceptional. Think if you get great grades in french then you have a great feather in your cap. Your french teacher for example can tell the adcoms how you managed great grades in french in one year despite your shortcomings. It will surely increase your chances of admission.
If you take up AP’s and get a great score it will be great but so is the case with most people applying to ivy’s. You dont have to great as an international to get into ivy’s you have to be Exceptional.</p>

7

<p>I’ve done IB, and if you’re going to join an IB diploma program in the 12th, its purely suicidal. I don’t even know how they’re allowing you to join one year late. My advice would be to do something humanly possible, and take several APs. Bonus: Most top schools are picky with giving credits for IB, but not AP.</p>

8

<p>Thanks nomad, now that I have some ideas, I’ll reconcile and look at my options afresh. I’m not just aiming at the Ivy’s, I’m keeping my options open; though there’s nothing wron gin aiming for the “dream” schools!</p>

9

<p>That’s what I was thinking goodwood8, it would be quite tough! I’m more bent towards taking up APs now, thanks everyone for your inputs!</p>

10

<p>Best of luck choosing! If you need any help (application etc) feel free to PM me.</p>

11

<p>Don’t take the IB. Another user here, Arunemo, who also went to Belgium after the 10th, and took the IB, said that most of the students who applied abroad to US colleges from her school did the APs because you get no credit for the IBs in most schools in the US. So she said that it just seemed like an added burden (it helped those applying to UK and canada schools).</p>

12

<p>I am going to share some of my knowledge regarding IB with you. My daughter shifted from Class 10 CBSE-91% to IBDP in Grade11. It was absolutely her dream come true. While it worked for her it might not work for everybody. Therefore after reading the posts above , let me share little factual info that might be useful.</p>

<p>IB is great for people who are thinkers,learners and inquirers and who love to read and write. The system forces you to think out of the box. It encourages you to constantly ask questions and challenge yourself. The combination of subjects are entirely your own. You are competing with yourself because it will be rare for 2 people in one grade to have firstly same combination of subjects and secondly even if subjects are same the Level might not be. IBDP requires one to pick 3 Higher Level-HL and 3 Standard Level-SL subjects. However one can challenge oneself by taking maximum of 4 HL subjects.</p>

<p>Joining IBDP in Class 12 might not be practical for the following reasons:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>They have something apart from academics Extended Essay-EE,Theory of Knowledge-TOK and CAS, which carry 3 of the 45 points of IB Grades</p></li>
<li><p>The EE requires one to write a mini thesis of 4000 words, the prep for which starts in Grade 11.</p></li>
<li><p>The TOK again requires one to write 1500 words essay as well as an Oral Presentation, which again will have the preparation running from Grade 11.</p></li>
<li><p>The Math subject if it is HL requires 2 Portfolios (1 in Grade11 and 2nd in Grade12).</p></li>
<li><p>The Science subjects requires compulsory lab hours as well as lab design and reports.</p></li>
<li><p>The CAS activity involves 150-250 hours of community service ,sports etc. </p></li>
<li><p>The grading is done on 2 parameters, Subject and Exams. The Subject grade gets affected by the quality of your assignments, punctuality of submission, participation in class etc.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>There are whole lot of other club as community service activities that require one to stay back after school. The school timings as it is are very long 7:30am-3:40pm. it is a very demanding curriculum.</p>

<p>You do get credit for 5,6,7 in HL subjects in almost all the colleges in US.</p>

<p>I do hope this info is helpful for some of your queries.</p>

13

<p>I agree with anialways that joining IB in 12th would be difficult.
Regarding AP courses, as AP exams are not that difficult and one can score 5/5 bands even with self study, I think doing an AP course in school and then giving AP exams of college board would be even easier. I have taken 6 AP exams till now - results of 2 are pending as i gave them this May, but in other 4 subjects I could score 5/5 with self study. So, I think it would be easier than IB, and will have the same impact.</p>

14

<p>Thanks a lot Anialways, your post is immensely helpful to me and answered a lot of queries I had in mind, though I would have chosen IB if I had changed schools after 12th, I now see the advantage of taking up AP in my particular case.</p>

<p>Thanks to you too p25india!</p>

<p>Cheers all!</p>

15

<p>Pixie, how nice of you to namedrop me in random threads. I feel famous :slight_smile:
My tomfoolery aside, I would’ve told you exactly what anialways told you. Doing the IBDP from scratch in 12th grade is impossible. The workload is bad enough in 12th grade as it is, and that’s after completing one year of the IB already. The IB is designed to be a 2 year program, so unless you’re really keen on getting an IB Diploma for some reason(in which case you’ll have to repeat 11th grade), there is really no point in you doing the IBDP for the States. However, you could do all the IB classes and take the exam at the end of the year without doing the full diploma, in which case you’ll be free from the usual constraints of the IB i.e. you can take as many higher levels as you want, no social sciences, no extra language and so on. This way taking the IB exam is almost identical to taking the AP exam (though you’ll still have to fulfill the subject requirements like portfolios/lab reports/orals).
Btw Pix, I meant that there are a lot of people in my school who are doing the full IBDP and going to the States, but there are also others who got into just as good Unis (WUStL, NYU, and Cornell, to name but a few) without going the whole hog with TOK, EE, and CAS. They all get credit for individual subjects, I was just saying that technically, the IBDP is not an absolute requirement for US Unis like it is for Canadian or English ones. So that time I spoke to you, I was just ranting about how doing TOK, EE, and all the fuss of CAS really had no measurable benefit in the States, apart from strengthening your profile by showing you’re taking a rigorous course.</p>

16

<p>^Haha nemo, I actually meant to say what you just posted, I just didn’t express it the right way I guess?
You know how many times I’ve said to you that I wished I’d had the option of doing the IB. (remember the conversation? Nemo: IB puts so much pressure sometimes. Me: Mmnhn, oh I wish I could’ve done the IB.:p) I think the IB is a wonderful program for those who just want to learn for the sake of learning and gives a much more well rounded education than cbse since you don’t just focus on “science”, “commerce” or “humanities”.</p>

<p>Anyway, what I’d meant to say to OP was that there’s no point in doing the IB with just one year left even if he really wants to, as that would put too much pressure on him, and as it is, he can get more credits with his AP results so in his situation the IB really holds no advantage. Plus OP would be more comfortable with doing the APs because she/he’d feel more used to that kind of study environment since it’ll be more similar to cbse type studying.
Sorry for the confusion. :o</p>

17

<p>Ah! Well, thank you both Pixie and Arun! In the intervening period since I posted this, I have had the opportunity of consulting the school counselor. She was quite helpful and suggested that I take up a AP/IB hybrid program. I have decided upon the following:</p>

<p>AP Calc
AP Stats
AP Chem
IB Physics
IB English Lang
IB Economics</p>

<p>I’m comfortable with all of the above subjects, except that IB Economics and IB English Lang would be a bit challenging, considering CBSE English (Editting/Omitting anyone? Or was it just RKP? :wink: ) But what’s life without challenge!</p>

<p>I’m also considering self-studying for a few APs (some easy ones and some challenging ones)</p>

<p>Though I’m not going to type out all that I’m about to do because it isn’t exactly good(?) to talk and not perform :)</p>

18

<p>A good combination of subjects.</p>

<p>You can expect a whole lot of Credits/Advance Placements with those.</p>

<p>Also awesome for applying to Engineering/Business Schools.</p>

<p>Wish you the very Best…</p>

19

<p>Pixie! I agree about IB! I have always been oh-to-do-IB-and-not-have-to-pick-a-stream myself.</p>

20

<p>wow…ok your prospective belgium HS does not know how to operate the IB program obviously. As an IB alumni, I can tell you that the process actually lasts for two years at least. The first year is usually your junior year, where you end up doing internal assessments for each one of your classes (which I must add is a “conundrum” within itself since they take an intense amount of time). Additionally, you must complete 150 hours of CAS by the end of the program. Basically, CAS represents service hours (hence why IB is so intense in its own sphere). After the end of first year, the student ends up taking 1 or two standard level exams…higher lvls might be open to take depending on school administrator. When senior year comes…oh boy…you really have to buckle down. The intensity that rises shoulder high is just beyond me to explain in words. It’s the deadlines that make everyone so annoyed, irritated, and frustrated. Anyways…I don’t need to explain you about all the details…but oh yeah I will mention that aside from the normal english, math, science, and language courses…you also have to take a Theory of Knowledge class. It’s basically a philosophy class where you debate your opinions to make yourself finally realize just how much dependent you are in using inferences rather than building on base knowledge to get to a more abstract topic. At the end of your second year…when you finally think you are done…you will encounter the dreaded examination for each one of the subjects. Now here is the catch: each exam technically lasts for two FREAKING days! <astounding isn’t=“” it?=“”> Good luck trying to tie all of these requirements in in just a year lol.
I happen to have also done AP with IB…which isn’t really impossible if you are proactive enough to begin early. Comparing both programs…I do agree that IB is not that much emphasized in U.S. because well…we have our own system <ap>. Oh and I must add a contrary point to previous posters that mostly all ivies don’t really take AP scores to use as course credit. You begin at the base level, and learn from there. The same goes for IB scores…however I know that if you get a 7 in IB test you can actually use it for credit/placement at top universities. Courses are put in a slightly new shade of color really when compared to secondary education in college.
IB is a good program because it makes you aware of your global community. It is also lovely to be able to comprehend a non-native language because it will help you comprehend native speakers when you visit the respective country. However, it requires time and commitment which just can’t be comprised in a single year.
Do AP because if you want to go to US (as in you have the money and all…because education is expensive) it will be easier for adcoms to compare your profile with other students. The easier it is that you assimilate in context and testing category with the rest of the native applicants…the easier it will become for the main heads to make their decision. I believe that IB is more for european based universities such as university of glascow, University of oxford, cambridge…blah blah blah, but even they are ok with APs. You actually don’t have an option actually to do IB, so you have to do AP, which will take a lot of burden away from your shoulders (trust me), especially because the only way you will get above your expectations is if you have a route to remain focused in. IB demands a more multi-tasking nature which might just confuse you further with the school transferring period. </ap></astounding></p>

<p>By the way, if I were in your place I would plan out a safety that loves to transfer credits for AP scores. For most part, some top universities don’t accept a lot of AP credit…because either they are private and want to make money from your retaking requirement/their higher lvl courses are actually quite hard. </p>

<p>Let me know if you require more information on either or both programs.</p>