A critical decision... Help me out!

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>OK, well I already posted this elsewhere, but I thought I could also get answers here... </p>

<p>Basically, I am a high school Junior. My one goal (and I KNOW this is what I want in life) is to have a successful career in medicine... I'm absolutely decided on this, so there is no "you might change your mind" issue here.</p>

<p>Anyway, this is the situation. I'm a pretty good student, with a good shot at top colleges (Not HYPSM, but... you know)... but to be honest, my family is not rich. I would definitely need to save as much money as possible to avoid being too far in the hole after coming out of medical school. And I'm not very confident (at all) at my chances of receiving scholarships at top colleges.</p>

<p>Furthermore, I've done some research and apparently the prestige of the undergraduate institution is really not weighted heavily at all in medical admissions. Along with this, I am an excellent self-studier, and an excellent tester, especially when it comes down to sciences and verbal reasoning, which the MCAT is based on.</p>

<p>So here's the deal:</p>

<p>I personally think I would do much better at a lower ranked LAC (But still good)... such as Furman University, Macalester College, Mount Holyoke... you know. Basically, at somewhere like that, I think I can compete at the top of my class, and still have the discipline to incorporate self-studying to achieve a stellar MCAT. Furthermore, I would save tons of money, since I could probably hope for some merit aid at places like that.</p>

<p>But my parents think I should apply to prestigious national universities, high end LACs, and maybe even some Lower Ivies. The problem is, I don't think I'll get any financial aid from them. Also, the classes would be so darn competitive... although they might be better for me in the end, and there's also the prestige factor. But it's mostly the money issue that makes me hesitant to apply to places like Duke and Cornell.</p>

<p>So I see one of two paths for me:</p>

<p>Go to (Mid Ranking LAC) on a full scholarship. Stay near the top of the class, look for as many opportunities as I can for research/etc., and incorporate self-studying into my regular science classes to achieve a great MCAT score.</p>

<p>or..</p>

<p>Go to (High Rank LAC/High Rank National University), paying $20,000 a year. Compete with other extremely academically motivated students, but quite possibly learning much more. Also, have more opportunities for research... and still achieve a great MCAT score, with possibly less self-studying. And of course, bragging rights, haha.</p>

<p>What should I do? I only have a certain amount of slots on my application list, and I need to make a decision. Go to a lower LAC, dominate the class, self study, and save money... or go to a high end university?</p>

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<p>Apply to both, see if you actually ge tthe scholarships. Make sure to be national merit, then you could go to, say, Ohio State or ASU or FSU on a full ride and have plenty of research, etc.</p>

<p>I was in a similar boat as you years ago, and went the money route. I did no self studying during my courses at my ‘low ranking university’ and did just fine on the MCAT. You see, the MCAT is on extremely basic material. You’d have to find a pretty crappy college that wasn’t able to give you the basics. You then just refresh what you learned and practice for the MCAT.</p>

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<p>Yes, I’m national merit. 234 PSAT selection index, which is pretty much guaranteed to make the cut-off… haha. </p>

<p>Just WHAT are my scholarship opportunities at a semi-decent (As in, rank 35-25ish) LAC? I think their academic environments are nicer than big state schools, because I absolutely adore small, intimate classes. </p>

<p>Some basic stats:
GPA: 3.96 UW, only B was in freshman year. Class rank is definitely top 10%, probably top 5% in an extremely competitive school. (Sent 8 to Duke last year)
Course Rigor: Very rigorous, full IB schedule senior year, with 5 high level classes. Some AP classes sprinkled in.
SAT I: 800 CR, 780 M, 650 W (Yea… stupid writing…)
SAT II:
800 Bio M, 800 Chem., 780 Literature.
APs: 5 Bio, 5 Chem, 5 English Lit/Comp, 5 AP Comp. Sci…
IBs: 6 Math SL, 6 Spanish SL… still have to take all my others senior year. </p>

<p>Awards:
Just national merit finalist (234)</p>

<p>Significant ECs: </p>

<p>Eagle Scout (Extremely large project, involved over $1300 funding)</p>

<p>500+ Hours of Community Service devoted to the church… (5 Mission trips to Katrina Relief and reconstructing the church sanctuary)</p>

<p>Weightlifting Team (3 years), Varsity and J/V. </p>

<p>14 Hour/Week Job throughout school year, from beginning of Junior Year to present.</p>

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<p>I wouldn’t know about LAC scholarships. I wouldn’t rule out large universities. They can be a solution to your problem. For example, Barrett Honors College at ASU (where I went) is its own campus next to college to provide you with that liberal arts feel. However, you also have access to all of the things available at a large university with the added benefit of always being first in line. If you want details from me about how awesome my experience was, can’t speak for everyone obviously this is just me, feel free to PM me.</p>

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<p>Just because you mentioned Furman, you should check out your competition for full-tuition (Duke scholarship- 10 ) or full-ride scholarships ( Lay Scholarship- 4). Full scholarships are very rare at what you are thinking are semi-decent LAC’s. In fact the competition remains “HYP stats” quality much lower than 25-35.</p>

<p>My D did an exhaustive search and application process as she needed substantial merit aid, too. The kids she met at scholarship weekends were the kids getting into HYP. All of them were competing against each other for a tiny number of of the largest awards. (Substantial merit aid is available for someone with your stats at many schools, just not “full” as mentioned in your post.)</p>

<p>Though your stats are VERY impressive and you should be proud, they would not stand out in the group you will be competing against. You will be one of a pack of hundreds of scholarship-dogs chasing the same skinny rabbit.</p>

<p>BTW, you can just do a search on my name as the poster + merit + (about any top 100 LAC and many uni’s ) and find posts by me on the subject.</p>

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<p>

Sure thing buddy.</p>

<p>

What makes you think you’ll “dominate the class” at the former? What makes you think you’ll have to do more or less studying for the MCAT at one school versus another? What makes you think you’ll learn more at one university than another? Introductory biology is introductory biology at any school. The principles of organic chemistry don’t change from one school to another.</p>

<p>You have a very skewed and very incorrect view of how college works.</p>

<p>Additionally, it all really comes down to which school is right for you and none of us can tell you that. We can make recommendations based on what we think, but we are not you. You yourself acknowledged that the school name doesn’t matter much in medical school admission, so giving us your complete high school CV doesn’t really accomplish anything. This is a decision you have to make based on the best fit for you.</p>

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<p>GS basically summed it up more than anyone else over here can. Visit your first few choices, make a ranking from there, than apply early decision to your first choice is the best advice i can give you.</p>

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<p>OK, GoldShadow… since my family CLEARLY doesn’t have the time or money to visit 8 different institutions, let’s scratch that. And since to say that there’s no marked difference between the competition from students at HYPSM and the students at Middle-LAC… is ridiculous, what are you trying to get at? Introductory biology through a professor who assigns curves based on a class of 2200+ valedictorians, or a class of average-to moderately bright students? </p>

<p>If everyone knew exactly their “fit”, why would we even need guidance counselors? And to the suggestion for applying ED to a first choice school, the whole point is that I need an affordable deal to save my family a lot of heartache… in which case ED might bind me to something I will end up bankrupting my family over. No deal.</p>

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<p>Mowmow, my D goes to top 40-50 LAC (I guess that would be lower than semi-decent ;)) and I can assure you that if you went to her school you would not be in a class of “average to moderately bright students”. But go ahead and think that. Just be prepared to get your :eek: kicked …with some regularity. You do under-estimate the quality of the top students found at most colleges and universities. Whether that be at Denison or Furman or University of South Carolina, there’s probably more than a couple kids there that will clean your clock. My D has found plenty of kids that can push her at her little wide-spot in the road and she had much higher stats than you quoted.

I think you’ll find the same. </p>

<p>You might want to spend a little time with some Common Data Sets for your target schools. Take a look at the top %-tiles at any of those schools.</p>

<p>Research what it means to be a top student in college before your mouth starts writing checks your butt might not be able to cash.</p>

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<p>Could you get any more ridiculous, or immature? I never attacked your daughter, so I find it aggravating that you find it already apparent that I will “get my butt handed to me” at a top 50 LAC… did I say I would be valedictorian? No. But I expect to do VERY WELL in the class when based on HARD stats alone, my SAT CR+M would be around 200 points past the 75th percentile mark. </p>

<p>Are you so spectacularly biased as to assume that a rank 50 LAC has a class full of 2200+ valedictorians? You need to sit down yourself with some common data sets. The 75th percentile of SAT CR+M at Denison (actually more selective than its rank implies) is a 1360. The average GPA is a 3.6, not taking into account that only 53% of its students were even in the top 10% of their public schools. Put your damn money where your mouth is and stop spouting baseless exaggerations- if you want to claim something, give me the hard data to prove it. You claim instead of performing around the top of my class i.e. DOING WELL ABOVE THE AVERAGE, I will “get my butt handed to me”.</p>

<p>Oh, and congrats about your amazing daughter, who apparently has stats “far higher than mine”.</p>

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<p>Temper temper. I believe the point that needs to be made is that you will not be competing against the average students at any university, but a group of pre-meds that will include many of the best of a given university. So even if only 10% of the class is even close to your competitiveness (assuming that high school gpa and SAT scores correlate to this), that can fill an upper level biology class pretty easily and then things get a lot stickier.</p>

<p>Also, while you might be competing about the best of the best at, say, Harvard, also remember that the curve is set to a B+ instead of a C from what I hear. So, that compensates slightly for some of the differences in any given good school compared to the very tip top.</p>

<p>If you tell universities that you are highly competitive at that you have financial issues, it isn’t unheard of for them to subsidize your trip. My university does, at least.</p>

<p>Finally, I think what people are trying to say is that its a whole new world. Being the top or close to the top in high school doesn’t mean you will be top when you get into college. Even IF your stats were higher than most other students, a lot is going to change. Don’t get caught with your pants down. The reason you are getting a little flack is because some of the things that you are saying can be taken as derogatory to people with loved one’s in top 50 LACs, and it is also due to your confidence over you goals and future performance. I’m not saying you deserve a grilling, but just keep this in mind that some people here have seen it all before and it is never so simple and straight as we think at the start.</p>

<p>Group hug everyone.</p>

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<p>On a side note, if your family makes less than 100k many top schools offer huge need based scholarships.</p>

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<p>I understand I will be competing with some exceptional students. But I’m not such a cringing pessimist as to believe I will “get my butt handed to me.” Everyone eventually went from high school to college, and I humbly believe that if I can perform well in a top high school, I can also do well in a relatively good LAC. </p>

<p>What else was I going to say? That I would do mediocre at a middle LAC and get raped by a top tier University to please some people on here? Because unless I slip into the party/skipping classes scene, I pride myself on having at least enough motivation to stay competitive. The level of insult I saw from that last post for absolutely nothing antagonistic had me shocked, and extremely offended.</p>

<p>HERE is the problem: My family DOES make more than 100k. $120,000 a year, to be precise. BUT this is where some of our money goes: 10% church tithe (-12,000). Sisters in private Christian schools (-16,000). Grandmother with breast cancer- constant expensive drug treatment and chemo. (-20,000). With inflated prices and a sinking economy, it’s no wonder we’re already scraping the bank to get through… and I want to save my family that kind of struggle to support this along with another couple ten-thousands for my college. </p>

<p>So kindly HELP ME OUT instead of bragging about how amazing your daughter is, and telling me how I’m going to get a “rude awakening” or my “butt handed to me” with little smiley faces to match, because I’m not going straight into Advanced Organic Chem 452 freshman year. I think with an 800 Bio M and 800 Chem SAT I’ll be able to handle Bio 101. For goodness sake, just suggest a few schools for me that I have a good shot of getting an almost full package.</p>

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<p>lol. Toughen up buddy. It’s the 'net. I was trying to be helpful. Check around. I know what I’m talking about on “merit aid”. (I’ve helped plenty of kids in your situation. And I’ll be glad to help you, too. When and if you are ready to listen.) I told my D the same exact thing I’m telling you. In the exact same words, too. Only she didn’t breakdown and start having a conniption. :wink: Don’t ask for advice if you don’t want it. (And anyway, I was VERY congratulatory about your tests scores, or did you miss that?) </p>

<p>Nowhere did I say anything specific about my “amazing” offspring. Nor was I feeling defensive. I didn’t quote her stats or where she was accepted. If you’d like them, p.m. me. </p>

<p>If you think college will be easier than your high school, where you didn’t exactly rock the world rank-wise , you may need to re-think your plan. </p>

<p>I spoke the truth about your chances for merit aid of your “full” variety. Your rank will kill you at some of your lesser schools. And no, they don’t give a crap about how competitive your high school is for some scholarships (check out the Singer at UMiami for one). What you choose to do with that…well, that’s up to you. But I’d be prepared.</p>

<p>p.s. In light of your inexperience, I’ll give you a pass on the rest of your post.</p>

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<p>For goodness sake, just suggest a few schools for me that I have a good shot of getting an almost full package.</p>

<p>That’s my point. You view this as almost a given. It’s not at the level of schools you have been discussing. Scout’s honor. Look at Furman again. I’ll p.m. you some merit aid links when I get back from riding this morning.</p>

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<p>Instead of trying to find schools with “good” merit aid packages (apparently, by which you mean “full ride”), why don’t you research LACs that interest you and see how good their financial aid is? Some of them are known to be pretty generous in that department, and so if you do get merit aid, that will just help. I know it’s not what you’re looking for, but my parents make ~120/130,000 a year, and Vandy still gave us a substantial amount for financial aid. Look for schools with similar finaid initiatives.</p>

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<p>curm: You are very kind in spite of what OP has posted. When I read the last few posts from OP, I said to myself: “Oh, No, he may have just missed the best opportunity of getting helps from an expert in this area.” :-)</p>

<p>OP: I have not much to offer you as compared to others here. Just one point though: Since you will need good grades while in college, I heard that the reading/writing skill is the most important skill at some (but not all) top colleges. I do not imply that your reading/writing skill is not good though. Please do not flame me for this. I just provide you some info I heard before: Some science-lopsided kids may get some GPA hit in their required humanity classes at some schools. Compared to kids from private high schools, it may take some time before a public high school kid gets used to the small seminar type classes that are very common at some top colleges.</p>

<p>BTW, my kid was from a competitive public high school and had good numbers as well. From what I observed, the way to get good grades at a competitive public high school may be somwwhat similar to that at a good public state school or a research university - you are there anonymously to get good grades by taking tests. I do not have any first-hand experiences with LACs.</p>

<p>He did not get any money from anywhere – We were very inexperienced though. Our family income may be even lower than yours. So I think it is likely an uphill battle for you (to get money, not just to get accepted.) You really need all the helps you can get.</p>

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<p>OP: The best advice I can offer is to get over your sense of entitlement. Yes, you are very smart - there is no doubt about that. But there are hundreds of thousands of high school seniors every year who are very smart and it’s unrealistic to think that you’ll get a free ride. You can probably get very good merit scholarships, but you need to stop thinking that high scores equals getting a free pass.</p>

<p>College is a different setting with different peers. My opinion is that most kids with your type of stats really haven’t had to work very hard. They are generally very busy, but don’t really have to work very hard to get the grades. It will be different in college. Maybe not your freshman year - often kids from very competitive high schools find that the first year classes are not that much different from what they have already taken. But it will get a lot tougher. </p>

<p>I distinctly remember my freshman year in engineering and coming home at Thanksgiving and telling my parents that “it turns out pretty much everybody was valedictorian of their high school too”. There weren’t many girls in engineering thirty years ago and it was a wake-up call for me to be competing against all these kids who were just as smart as I was. I had gotten way too used to being the smartest one at school - it’s a big change to be a small fish in a big pond.</p>

<p>There are lots of great schools out there that could be an excellent match for you and where you are likely to get an excellent financial aid package. Do the research to find out what the opportunities are for you and you’re bound to find several that meet your needs.</p>

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<p>OP, yes, you have great test scores. It could mean you are truly bright, also could mean you have been studying (as other student’s have professed on this board to doing) since middle school. Please show us some of those smarts by reading curm’s past postings. He clearly is one of the most informed on cc for the very questions you are asking.</p>

<p>Happy reading. :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile: (I like smileys too!)</p>

<p>Your thread title, “A Critical Decision…Help Me Out!!!” Seems to me that is what people have been trying to do.</p>

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<p>

In addition to what mmmcdowe said about some universities subsidizing visits to the school, there are a number of things you can do. Extensively check up on the school’s website. Go through it with a fine tooth comb. Find the school newspaper online and just skim through past issues. Visit the schools’ respective boards here on CC and find out what people are saying. Email students from the school, or call the admission office and ask if they will provide you contact information of student representatives (such as tour guides) or something. Check out student organizations on the school website; these often have contact information for the officers. Email officers of clubs you find interesting and use that chance to also ask them about the school. Use Google Maps to find out what restaurants/businesses/services are available in the surrounding area, or for that matter zoom in real close and look at the campus itself! Flip through the guidebooks, look at student housing and meal options, go through the course catalog.</p>

<p>There’s a lot you can do besides visiting.</p>