A Generation of American Men Give Up on College (WSJ Article)

College Search & Selection
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9101transfermum,

I have two boys, ages 17 and 13. For years we have been setting the expectation for when they graduate high school. They have four choices:

  1. Get a job and move out
  2. Go to a trade school or earn a technical certificate that results in a good paying job
  3. Go to a good college and study a major that results in a good paying job - that would be Purdue or UofM to study engineering or business, not 14th century Persian poetry at Northwest Monroe County Community College, or…
  4. I drop their ass off at the Marine recruiter (Parris Island is beautiful in June)

We have made clear that living in our basement and playing video games is not on the menu. Even our 13 year old knows not to ask.

My older son is applying to colleges now and we have discussed him taking a gap year as long as he meets two conditions. First, he must apply to colleges now, get accepted and defer a year at his chosen institution. Second, he must work a full time job (40+ hrs/wk) that he finds himself. If he puts in the effort to find work related to his career interests that he enjoys, that is great, but if not he can stack shelves at Ace Hardware.

I don’t know which of our four options would work best for your son, but don’t discount #4. Going into the service can provide direction for a rudderless kid, and he doesn’t need to go into the Marines. In the Air Force, for example, he can get great training in a marketable skill, gain responsibility at a young age, learn some discipline (though not as much as in the Marines), and earn some great educational benefits like the GI Bill and/or veteran’s grants (I went to grad school on a grant and paid exactly $0 in tuition). To put your mind at ease, unless he becomes a pilot - which he can’t without a college degree - the chances of him being in harms way are approaching zero. He might not even deploy overseas.

Hang in there.

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43

Fair enough.

Poked around on the internet, and there are some articles about how people are more likely to marry those who are similarly educated and marriages are more likely to last that way.

For example:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/science/gentlemen-prefer-brains-similarly-educated-couples-last-9631871.html%3Famp

So educational inequities could be something that matters.

This is not my area of expertise, but I am intrigued by the premise that a disparity in educational levels overall is potentially problematic. This isn’t a slam on people who don’t go to college (I am squarely in the camp that a college education is overrated, and shouldn’t serve as a gate keeper for as many job tracks as it does). But as a general concept, societies with a large number of young men who are adrift and underemployed have a lot of volatility. It seems like a trend to pay attention to.

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Warblersrule, I think you miss the point of my post. Yale stopped requiring that students read Shakespeare, and other English classics, because the administration caved to a new Woke orthodoxy where works are assigned - or banished - based on the ethnicity of the authors, not the quality of the writing. An academically rigorous - and enlightened - university would assign works based on the insight, prose, reasoning and wit of the author, not his or her immutable characteristics.

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Again, this is getting quite off-topic for this thread, and you should really start a new one.

But you are attempting a proof by repeated assertion; in particular, you seem to be assuming that having an ethnically diverse reading list must occur at the expense of the quality of the writing.

A moment’s reflection should be able to demonstrate that such an assumption is problematic, to put it mildly.

And now in an attempt to bring this properly back on topic, are you arguing that such moves are resulting in fewer men attending college? If so, what is the mechanism for that happening?

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My friend’s son did just that. Graduated from a highly regarded private school, had the stats to get into a great college but decided he rather work with his hands than sit in a cubicle. He comes from a military family and did his research - figured out that the quickest path to doing what he wanted to do (work on computer systems of jet airplanes) was to enlist in the air force. A year later he is stationed on a base close to his hometown (he got to pick his top 3 base choices), living in cheap (free?) single guy base housing and doing he what he enjoys. Can come and go from the base as he chooses. Very little chance that he will be in harm’s way (I think my friend said he would only have to deploy if the specific jet(s) he works on at his base have to deploy.

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A separate issue is that many boys simply aren’t fit and healthy enough to join the military.

The article points out that boys are choosing to remove themselves from the pool, not to learn trades but to hang out at their parents’ home till maturity makes them realize this is not sustainable nor satisfying.
Colleges should include clear pathways for HS graduates who want to “get back on track”.

Some majors outside of engineering or business can be quite profitable, English included. After all, companies need people to write for them (internal communication or PR), analyze trends, focus on specific groups of clients (be they women or African Americans or…), etc. LACs do that very well; neither Engineering nor Business majors are equiped for that, unless they took a pretty thorough minor or cluster of courses alongside their major.

BTW, these are the required freshman/sophomore course for Yale English majors (125, 126 and either 127 or 128 are the typical sequence although students can pick any 3) PLUS 4 courses representing the classical tradition with 1 per historical period. ONLY THEN can majors pick classes of their choice.
Personally, I’d rather major in Business at Purdue than in English at Yale, because it looks MUCH harder to major in English.

Blockquote
ENGL 125a or b, Readings in English Poetry I Staff
Introduction to the English literary tradition through close reading of select poems from the seventh through the seventeenth centuries. Emphasis on developing skills of literary interpretation and critical writing; diverse linguistic and social histories; and the many varieties of identity and authority in early literary cultures. Readings may include Beowulf, The Canterbury Tales, Middle English lyrics, The Faerie Queene, Paradise Lost, and poems by Isabella Whitney, Philip Sidney, William Shakespeare, Amelia Lanyer, John Donne, and George Herbert, among others. Preregistration required; see under English Department. WR, HU

ENGL 126a or b, Readings in English Poetry II Staff
Introduction to the English literary tradition through close reading of select poems from the eighteenth century through the present. Emphasis on developing skills of literary interpretation and critical writing; diverse genres and social histories; and modernity’s multiple canons and traditions. Authors may include Alexander Pope, William Wordsworth, Elizabeth Barrett Browning, Robert Browning, W. B. Yeats, T. S. Eliot, Langston Hughes, Gertrude Stein, Gwendolyn Brooks, Elizabeth Bishop, and Derek Walcott, among others. Preregistration required; see under English Department.

ENGL 127a or b, Readings in American Literature Staff
Introduction to the American literary tradition in a variety of poetic and narrative forms and in diverse historical contexts. Emphasis on developing skills of literary interpretation and critical writing; diverse linguistic and social histories; and the place of race, class, gender, and sexuality in American literary culture. Authors may include Phillis Wheatley, Henry David Thoreau, Herman Melville, Walt Whitman, Emily Dickinson, Frederick Douglass, Gertrude Stein, Langston Hughes, Ralph Ellison, Flannery O’Connor, Allen Ginsberg, Chang-Rae Lee, and Toni Morrison, among others.
ENGL 128a or b, Readings in Comparative World English Literatures Staff
An introduction to the literary traditions of the Anglophone world in a variety of poetic and narrative forms and historical contexts. Emphasis on developing skills of literary interpretation and critical writing; diverse linguistic, cultural and racial histories; and on the politics of empire and liberation struggles. Authors may include Daniel Defoe, Mary Prince, J. M. Synge, James Joyce, C. L. R. James, Claude McKay, Jean Rhys, Yvonne Vera, Chinua Achebe, Ngũgĩ wa Thiong’o, J. M. Coetzee, Brian Friel, Amitav Ghosh, Salman Rushdie, Alice Munro, Derek Walcott, and Patrick White, among others.

This is the list of possible majors at Purdue that relate to Business

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When my son was 13 or 17, I thought the same things and had the same plans. My son was accepted both of the good schools you mentioned. He went to U of M and didn’t do well — found it hard to do his work. Pandemic didn’t help. So he is not taking classes now He also refuses to take a low paying job. He doesn’t see the point. And you can drop someone off at a military recruiting center. But you can’t make them sign. Hopefully you don’t have the same issue with your sons when they are 21 as I do. I can’t control his life. But it is sure sad when he makes poor choices and feels hopeless

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Thank you

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This reminds me of when my tantrum prone toddler would scream and scream in public and other parents would “helpfully” say I would never let my child do that. @9101transfermum It’s certainly not as easy as some people make it sound. I’m sure you know you’re not alone in this situation.

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9101transfermum, you are exactly right; you can take a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink (or take a kid to a military recruiter, but you cannot make them sign). What parents can do, however, is take away options like living in their basement while unemployed. This would be hard for both parent and child, but would probably be best for the child in the long term.

Of course, it is easy for me to say this now and my tune might change in two or three years if my son drops out of college and wants to return home.

I knew a guy who was an engineering student at CMU on ROTC scholarship. He was smart as hell and pulled a 3.8 in his intro science and math weedout classes, which was unheard of at The Nerd Farm in the 1980s. He then discovered beer, stopped going to classes, his grades tanked and he lost his ROTC scholarship. He flunked out and spent several years as a truck dispatcher. He finally had an epiphany, got his act together, earned his undergrad, MBA, JD and PhD degrees, in quick succession, and is now a tenured professor at a top 30 business school. Unlike your son, he did not have supportive parents who wanted the best for him, and he was able to turn his life around. Your son will find his way and get his life back on track.

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Good for them! I respect anyone who has the gumption to make it on his or her own. I have a nephew who did not go to college but runs his own business operating a physical training facility; I am proud of him, and would put my life in his hands if it came to it. But I also look at him and see that not going to college has made a great difference in how he sees the world and what he wants out of it; which is not necessarily a good match for how my daughter sees the world and what she wants out of it.

BTW, I agree in significant part with your other posts on this thread.

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Yes. It is exactly exactly like that. Thank you. Helps to know I’m not alone. But it’s still hard and sad :heart:

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I have a son also, and his years of high school through the first two years of college were very fraught in our family; and there were many moments of dispair where we thought that he would simply run off the rails. He didn’t, but it hasn’t been an easy journey.

As @Sweetgum and other posters suggest, perhaps a gap year or two could help, or as @JackH2021 mentions, even the military. My nephew – who I referenced in another response – was going in to a bad place early in his high school career, and got sent to a military school to finish his high school education. He had some great role models there, and the structure and sense of purpose he found there really made a positive difference for him; and I think helped prepare him to find his way – without college – as a contributing member of Adult World.

Your son is lucky to have a parent who cares about him. Best of luck to you both!

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Gandalf, My wife insists that all kids go through a rough patch and give their parents gray hair at some time in their lives. Both my boys gave us much to worry about for several years when they were in elementary school (both diagnosed with ADHD and some behavioral disorders very early on, and the district even wanted to send Thing #2 to “grade school juvie”). In fact, we made the difficult decision for me to give up my career to care for the kids.

Fast forward to today, when both kids are doing great in school and their behavioral issues are behind us. My wife jokes that we already paid our dues, so we don’t need to worry about drug use, wrecked cars, pregnant girlfriends or visits from the police in high school. So far, she has been right. Hopefully, we can stay on this path through college and their entry into the working world.

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Myos, you are right about many kids being unfit for military service. Shockingly, over 70% of Americans between the ages of 17 and 24 are ineligible to serve because of health issues (largely related to obesity), criminal records, and/or lack of a high school diploma or GED.

Were you being facetious about English being harder than Business? I found my Finance, Statistics, Operations Research and Accounting classes far more difficult than my English, History and Philosophy courses.

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I’m just going to make a wild guess here: that many of those degrees and certificates come with hefty debt a la University of Phoenix style, for-profit institutions.

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I think your tune might change indeed. Kicking a kid out of your house is a great way to sever the relationship with your son. Also can be an easy path for him to start drinking excessively, using and selling drugs, etc, and feeling like you don’t care about him. Please don’t criticize until you’ve walked in someone else’s shoes.

Our situation was somewhat similar. My oldest is really a bright kid, but just has always hated school. Had some terrible teen angst in high school (took a year and homeschooled did dual enrollment at community college — disastrous) and really took a lot of pushing from us as parents to make it to graduation in May 2019.

We felt like it was fine to have a breather after the pulling teeth of getting through high school. So my oldest basically was taking a gap year in Fall of 2019 and then 2020 happened. Had that not happened I probably would have been pushing that it was time to get a job, etc, but COVID happened and we didn’t have any vaccines or anything and I was totally fine with everyone hunkering down at home. My husband started working from home (I always do) and my youngest’s high school went online. So there was absolutely no pushing anything from me for 2020 and then after being at home for a year and sitting around, watching TV, looking at the internet, playing games, my oldest was like ‘this is boring and stupid, I’m gonna get a job at Starbucks’ and did. I did not encourage this because this was still pre-vaccine and we were all hunkered at home ordering groceries curbside, but the time was right.

After working at Starbucks for about 5 months I got told, ‘You’re going to laugh at me, but I’ve decided to go back to Community College.’ And that’s where things stand today — Starbucks and Community College. I did not have anything to do with either one of those things happening except I had always said “if you ever decide you want to go back to school, we’ll help pay for it” so we are footing the bill for Community College.

I don’t know if my oldest will try to transfer to a 4 year school after getting an Associates, and I’m not going to ask because I have learned with my kid it works better to just be supportive and not be directive.

I am grateful for that time hunkered down during the pandemic because I think it stopped me from being “you’ve got to get a job or else” which I think would have been disastrous for my kid. It worked much much better for it to be a self-motivated, self-directed decision and not mom and dad telling you what to do yet again. I think having that time to just sort of chill out and reflect and do some subconscious thinking and some conscious thinking just really helped in our situation. All situations are different and different kids feel things differently. For my kid school had felt like 13 years of being told what to do and they pushed back hard against it. And it took some time with those external voices being shut up and quiet during the pandemic for my oldest to really hear their own internal voice and decide for themselves what they wanted to do. For us that gift of space was huge.

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You are a great dad; and I hope that your sons appreciate that some day!

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circuit, In union markets, the unions typically train new apprentices in their trade. I think the only payment from the trainee is union membership and dues. In non-union markets they are typically trained by their employer. They are paid a relatively low wage as a new apprentice, and their pay jumps when they become journeymen.

Our school district has a large vocational school with its own centralized campus. They train students to be machinists, mechtronics technicians, CNC operators, and other trades that feed the manufacturing sector in SE Michigan. Students go half time to their normal high school, and half time to the vocational campus and graduate in five years with their HS diploma and an Associates Degree in their chosen trade. This is all paid for with tax dollars, just like regular high school. I am not sure how common this type of program is.

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Why would you assume that?