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<p>Love it…
Also love the grandma interrupting scene Naturally cited. This goes to show you rape doesn’t happen in isolation and more likely to be a cultural byproduct. Some campus culture may be more encouraging(?) of rape. While we encourage women to speak out, we could also try to encourage more respectful campus culture.</p>
<p>I for one am against amnesty program, for work or college. I was a victim of numerous instants when disgruntled employees reported on me, and each time has proven to be false and malicious (many other managers also had similar experience). I don’t think there should be retribution, but whoever does reporting should own up to it, or else there would be a lot of witch hunt. </p>
<p>I have two girls. They have dated and most of young men are wonderful, respectful. I am at D2’s parents weekend. We discussed this issue last night. Knock on wood, she has not had any unwanted encounter. She has been to many parties on/off campus. Of course, I gave her another talk about not to go to parties by herself, not to leave anyone behind and speak up if she sees anything unusual.</p>
<p>I hope you’re having a fun visit!</p>
<p>I think the amnesty programs momofthree is referencing are the ones where if your friend has symptoms of alcohol overdose and you have been underage drinking, too, there will be no consequences for you for getting help. In other words, you will not get the drinking in the dorms write up.</p>
<p>I think those do help keep people safer.</p>
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that’s a biggie. </p>
<p>I’ve purposely avoided talking about men because this has been mostly about women, but clearly living in a house with 4 men, I’ve been unintentionally exposed to alot of “guy talk” over the years. I think the hype that guys will take advantage of every situation or any female is alittle over hyped. If anything, one of the benefits to men of all ages from the sexual revolution of decades past is they are more selective about when and where and who not less and many of the strong women of my decade who birthed these boys are much more forthcoming about talking to their men. The confusion for young men these days is figuring how what the women want more than what they want. Do the women want to be friends, do they want to be friends with benefits, do they want to be exclusive girlfriends. I have some degree of empathy for young men.</p>
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<p>I find this absolutely shocking. Astonishing.<br>
More than one rape per week at Williams College?
Something is seriously out of whack here. How widespread is this at other schools?</p>
<p>momofthreeboys’ comment reminds me of an experience shared with me by a transgender (F2M) participant in the Teach for America program. During training, he was rooming with several young men unaware of his gender identity. Many TFA participants are recent graduates of the most elite colleges in America, ostensibly all committed to social justice. By day, during training sessions, all the discussion was very politically correct. Back in the dorm room, by night, the roommates discussed women in the program in highly offensive, sexist terms (“let’s put a bag over that one’s head so we don’t have to look at her or listen to her yak”).</p>
<p>At least with the Taliban, we know where they stand with women.</p>
<p>Mini – Based on your analysis of the statistics, have you concluded that Amherst and Williams actually do have a higher rate of sexual assaults than most other schools? What is causing this in your view? Who are the men who are perpetrating these crimes? Alcohol certainly contributes but cannot be the only answer. Do you believe that there is something about the culture on these campuses that turns nice decent boys into rapists? Or is there something about the admission criteria that these schools use that tends to favor rapists? Do you think that there is a greater number of perpetrators at these schools or is it that the small number of perpetrators are committing more crimes there? And, as parents, how should we be interpreting and/or evaluating the Clery reports on this issue? I just looked at the Clery reports for USC, a school my daughter is applying to, and Amherst. If I am reading the reports correctly, the two schools report roughly the same number of forcible sexual assaults even though USC has roughly TWENTY times the number of total students as Amherst. USC of course has a strong Greek and sports culture and a large binge drinking problem. So why would there be this discrepancy? Are women at Amherst more likely to report the crimes? And wasn’t Amherst the school that has the sexual conduct policies in the 1990s that were so widely lampooned (the “may I touch you there” policies that required express verbal consent for touching any different body part in the course of an intimate encounter)? How did Amherst go from being a school that seemed hyper concerned about these issues to the present situation?</p>
<p>nottelling, they are all really great questions, but I think they would be best directed to Amherst and Williams for consideration.</p>
<p>I looked at my alma mater’s security report last night. Not much of a drinking culture so I was curious and they have 4 reports in 3 years. Yes, I do believe there is a strong connection between heavy drinking and sex that is more than anecdotal.</p>
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<p>I don’t believe there’s culture that turns nice boys to rapists. I would guess, however, certain culture makes victims feel more isolated than others and allows rapists continue.</p>
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<p>I think both the quoted statement and the ensuing comment are missing the mark. We need to help all kids understand how to keep themselves personally safe. Drinking lowers inhibitions and mutes our internal warning signals. People also say things they might not say if they weren’t drinking. That’s a fact for men and for women. I’m sure some women don’t report because they were drinking and perhaps got themselves in a situation they might not otherwise be in if they were sober. They are embarrassed or ashamed even though they may have had sex that was non-consensual. We need to help college kids, some of whom are on their own and around alcohol for the first time understand that it’s not JUST about the fact they might die from liquor poisoning or get an MIP, but they might - both young men and young women - find themselves in situations they can’t control. Not every situation will lead to prosecution, but every situation probably needs some form of counseling - for men and for women. </p>
<p>I personally think that using the word rape puts it out the minds of many kids. They conjure up visions of forcible rape. I think a far better term to use is non-consensual sex. That is certainly something everyone can better understand and covers the scope. Women would be smart if they want to have campus awareness sessions and stage tables etc., to stop using the word rape and start using the word non-consensual sex. In my opinion.</p>
<p>I am a Williams parent and have to stick up for the overwhelming majority of Williams men who are kind and considerate. There are not roving hordes of rapists lurking in the shadows. There is what I would term a miserable sexual culture though. There is virtually no traditional dating. The drunken hookup is the modus operandi. One can imagine the level of communication and trust existing in these situations. Some young men, and they are clearly rapists, feel entitled to ignore the word no after getting to the point of having drunken girl on the bed. There are other situations where active, verbal consent was neither asked nor offered, sex occurs, and in a matter of seconds one partner feels penetrated without consent and the other thinks that’s just a typical Friday night. And that next week, when he passes her in the dining hall and won’t make eye contact, her feelings of violation grow. You can reverse and adjust the genders in play here of course.
So how does a college go about correcting a culture like this? It’s challenging. Discussion of behavior leads to accusations of victim blaming. The college can’t make people go on at least one sober coffee date before they have sex, but that might be a good thing to tell your kids to do. There is a men for consent group formed at Williams by male students. There is mandatory education on the subject in orientation. How do you change a culture?</p>
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<p>And at no time have I EVER done such a thing. Are you kidding? I am a woman. I have NEVER SUGGESTED that anyone should “just get over it,” much less said that <em>I</em> would. That would be the height of foolishness and hubris. No one knows how they will react in a situation involving crisis and personal trauma until they are in it. It would beyond stupid to confidently state that one would be impervious to a trauma that has devastated so many others. Not to mention the fact that people have the right to their feelings. Telling a woman that her feelings are invalid is just going to make her feel even more powerless and even more violated.</p>
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<p>This is PRECISELY the point I just made. The irony. Let me quote myself:</p>
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<p>Let me make something about this clear: When I say a woman “shouldn’t” feel shame, I am not BLAMING her if she does, I am saying that a) she does not deserve to feel shame, and b) that no one else should succeed in making her feel shamed. We apparently agree that a feeling of powerlessness feeds a feeling of shame. Maybe we cross-posted.</p>
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<p>The only current male Williams student I know took a term off last year to care for his dying girlfriend.</p>
<p>My scenario was a hypothetical, but it was MY hypothetical and Consolation does NOT have the right to change it into something quite different. I did NOT say the young woman was drunk. I did say she may have had a few drinks. Note that I did not say she definitely had. I also didn’t say she was drunk. Consolation said that was the only possible reason that she wouldn’t just leave when the guy paused to put on a condom and it was “just another drunken hook up.” I disagree and, yes, I think it’s disgusting to suggest that if a young woman didn’t just leave when the aggressor “paused” to put on a condom she must have been drunk. If Consolation’s attitude is that a young woman who is not “blotto” in that situation can just get up and leave when the man has decided he’s not going to let her, then yes, I hope Consolation doesn’t have a daughter. After the daughter has been raped, asking "Why didn’t you just leave? You MUST have been “blotto” " isn’t what I’d call sympathetic. For saying this, I am a “vicious *****.” Put my wish that Consolation doesn’t have a daughter on steroids. </p>
<p>One of the “details” in “Lucky” Consolation seems to have forgotten is that many people including Alice’s FATHER could not understand why she didn’t fight harder. HE blamed Alice for not fighting harder physically. Another is that she later realized that the policeman who took her first complaint did not believe her. Alice didn’t just wake up 10 years later and discover she was suffering from post traumatic stress syndrome. Alice became an alcoholic who eventually came to recognize that alcohol was the coping mechanism she used to deal not only with the fact that she had been raped but the responses she experienced when she reported it. Alice wasn’t “ashamed” when the rape first happened. It was a stranger rape. She was stone cold sober when it happened. Yet Alice experienced exactly what we’ve experienced in the thread. “This story doesn’t ‘smell’ right.” "Printing this victim’s story of what happened is “yellow journalism.” </p>
<p>How on earth does that poster know that the Amherst college paper didn’t verify some of the facts? What if 2 women on the staff said "Yes, I was raped. I went to the counseling center and I too was discouraged from reporting the crime. I too was told to forgive and forget. I’m not as brave as Angie and you can’t report my story, but , yes, I experienced something similar. " </p>
<p>Another post acknowledged that “not every” or maybe even “many” guys in my scenario wouldn’t be convicted. IRL, it would be absolutely extraordinary for criminal charges to be BROUGHT against the perp in that situation. If there was a condom, a rape kit isn’t going to prove a darn thing. And even if there wasn’t , he’ll say the sex was consensual. There is NO way in that scenario that a jury is going to find rape “beyond a reasonable doubt” so there is NO way that most prosecutors would file charges. </p>
<p>This isn’t just about “shame.” This is about FEAR. Forget rape. Imagine someone mugged you and in doing so beat you very, very badly. Imagine that person was someone you saw on campus all the time. Heck, I know someone who lived a version of that at the age of 8. Another child in school beat her up. She named the assailant but the assailant didn’t admit it and said that the victim must have her confused with someone else. Because there were no witnesses and no other proof, the school did nothing. The victim had to go back to the same classroom as the child who beat her. Guess which child’s parents withdrew her from the school. The little girl was NOT ashamed, but she was SCARED. I’m sure Angie was too. </p>
<p>Consolation goes on to tell us that “empowering” women is the “only thing that will work.” Empowering women? When someone is bigger than you are I don’t care what kind of attitude you have. Remember poor Annie Le? She was the small Ph.D candidate at Yale who was raped and murdered by a lab tech who was angry because she left the mice cages dirty. Annie was a bright beautiful young woman who was in a competitive doctoral program. The guy who raped and murdered her was a high school grad with a low level job who KNEW that complaining about Annie would do him no good because she was far above him in the academic hierarchy, so he used his physical power. Oh, Consolations would have “empowered” her. I’m sure that would have prevented her rape and murder. </p>
<p>As for Savannah Dietrich…the young men ADMITTED what they had done to a police officer. That’s rare. And, there was physical evidence corroborating Savannah’s story–the photos on the cell phone belonging to one of them. So, while I applaud Savannah Dietrich’s bravery–if you check you’ll see I started the thread–it’s just a very different scenario than most acquaintance rapes. Nevertheless…remember Will Frey’s father’s reaction? He tried to tell the police officer that Savannah was …well…not a nice young woman. We don’t know exactly what he said. We do know that when police questioned his son…HE WANTED TO TRASH THE VICTIM.</p>
<p>If you want to go beyond the hypothetical, the U of Montana has a major rape scandal going on now. One of the victims was alone in a dorm room with a football player WATCHING A MOVIE when he allegedly overpowered and raped her. From what I’ve read, there was no drinking involved and there was no “foreplay” involved. I guess we need to “empower” the alleged victim because that’s the ONLY answer. Why didn’t she just leave when he started to rape her?<br>
[University</a> of Montana QB Jordan Johnson charged with rape ? USATODAY.com](<a href=“http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/story/2012-07-31/Montana-Jordan-Johnson-rape-charges/56632202/1]University”>http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/story/2012-07-31/Montana-Jordan-Johnson-rape-charges/56632202/1)
Jordan claims it was consensual sex. Maybe it was. I don’t know. I do know though that even if it wasn’t, he’s extremely probable that he will be able to create a “reasonable doubt” that it was. </p>
<p>Women are only half of the equation. We need to do something about our young men. We need to change the culture. We need to convince young people of both sexes that sexual encounters shouldn’t occur unless both parties have agreed while sober that they want to have sex with each other. We need to teach our young men to speak up when some other guy brags about his “score.” We need to teach them to intervene when they see a young woman who seems to be in a bad situation. There’s a frat house at Penn at which something like 7 young women reported they were raped while in the bathroom. The parties were loud. The alleged perps pushed into the bathroom behind the women as they entered, locked the door behind them and raped them. I’m sure that in each and every case there will be reasonable doubt. Do I think that seven young women who didn’t know each other would make up the same story? Nope, I don’t. That doesn’t matter. What does matter is that in each individual case, it will be almost impossible to prove the guilt of the defendant beyond a reasonable doubt.</p>
<p>“Empowering” women is the only thing that will work? Yeah, I see RED when I read lies like that. That’s felony stupid.</p>
<p>Yes, Jonri: I think that it is desirable to empower young women to feel that they CAN report rapes and assaults and that they should NEVER feel ashamed. I think that not only would it be better for the women to feel empowered and supported to do this, but that it would result in fewer rapes, if only because the bastards would no longer figure they could get away with it, even in cases where an actual conviction is not obtained.</p>
<p>I’ve stated before that I think that the key to stopping all this is to teach kids that every human being must be treated with respect. That was pretty much derided. If that won’t stop them, then maybe outing the perps will.</p>
<p>I gather that you think this is an evil, woman-hating concept. So be it. I’m done with you.</p>
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<p>Unfortunately polarized opinions rarely lead to change as it takes some give and take to reach a position where both sides feel like they have gained something. When you are screaming you aren’t listening.</p>
<p>Wow, sparks are flying:) The trouble with emphasizing empowerment of women is that it is only a long term solution and doesn’t stop what is happening today. Besides, with other crimes we don’t say victims need to do this or that. If our kids get their laptops stolen, do we say they need to get a better lock or schools should enhance the security? Do we tell buliies stop right now or else or tell victims go to a self-defense class?</p>
<p>I have a lot to say and no time to say it. But one thing I must say is that I do not think calling people stupid is appropriate or constructive. When I encounter someone who is demonstrably not stupid saying something I disagree with, I listen. I think to myself, “Maybe there is something to this person’s perspective.” That’s the way I do it. Others don’t have to do the same thing, but it is not appropriate (according to the values of this online community) to call other people stupid. Those of you who are doing it: Please stop.</p>
<p>Consolation, you continue to twist everything I write.</p>
<p>I agree that it’s wise to tell young women that they should report sexual assaults. I agree that a woman who is raped should never be ashamed. But no, I don’t think an increase in reporting will IN AND OF ITSELF do a darn thing to reduce the incidence of rape. I think you are missing a MAJOR fact. It’s not just that most of the young men who are accused will never be CONVICTED, the truth is that most of the young men who are accused will NEVER BE CHARGED. You think that if a young man finds out a young woman has reported he has raped her, he will figure out that he can’t get away with it. </p>
<p>I’m suggesting that when a young man who has raped a young woman behind closed doors finds out that she has reported it but NOTHING HAPPENS to him; HE IS NOT EVEN CHARGED, the lesson he carries away is not “he can’t get away with it.” The lesson he carries away is that he CAN get away with it. </p>
<p>I also said that your statements to the effect that the only possible explanation for the fact that young woman doesn’t just leave when a young man attempts to take sex further than she wants is that she was “blotto” and it was “just another drunken hook up” was offensive. You’ve conveniently lost sight of the fact that THIS is the reason I said I hoped you don’t have a daughter. </p>
<p>I think that electronblue’s post is “spot on.” I think we have to change the culture. It’s very, very hard to do. And one of the reasons it is is that we have to change our sons, not just our daughters. We have to tell them that women are people. We have to tell them that they should be the guy in the frat who says “That T-shirt isn’t funny. It’s offensive.” They have to be the guy who sees a frat brother who is bringing the drunk girl into his room and says, “oh, she’s drunk, I’ll get my car so we can take her to the infirmary” or “I’ll help you take care of her” and who INSISTS on staying when the frat brother makes clear he should get lost. They have to be the guy in the locker room who says "That’s disgusting when his teammate brags about the drunken freshman he “**^^((&&” last weekend.</p>
<p>Agreed Igloo, but both approaches to the problem, in concert, would be an extremely effective catalyst for change. Both posters obviously feel very passionate about the issue. Imagine how effective it would be if those passions were directed towards the institutions that express a desire for a change in their cultures. That my point about women, we often fight each other instead of joining together to fight the problem.</p>