<p>Regarding sampling bias, I stand corrected. Thanks, lookingforward - I missed that.</p>
<p>The ACHA survey reported in the Williams Record gave percentages, which I believe were extrapolated to reach the numbers we’re talking about. Is that right or did I miss a post where raw numbers were reported? Specifically, </p>
<p>“Survey results for the College reported that within the last 12 months 19.2 percent of females and 3.8 percent of males experienced sexual touching without consent; 9.9 percent of females and 1.0 percent of males experienced attempted sexual penetration without consent and 4.4 percent of females and 0.3 percent of males experienced sexual penetration without consent. Out of the 2106 students enrolled at the College, 832 students responded to the survey.”</p>
<p>It is possible that those who have experienced sexual assaults are more likely to respond to such a survey, but roughly 2/5 of the student body did respond and even if not a single student among the non-responders has had a problem with sexual aggression on campus I hope we’d all agree the numbers are too high.</p>
<p>No, it is clearly rape whether the person is known or a stranger. But that is NOT what Jonri proposed. This was her scenario, not mine. In the acquaintance-rape scenario proposed by jonri I think it all too likely that the woman is incapacitated by alcohol. Which doesn’t make it any less rape, but DOES highlight the alcohol/assault link that seems to be so very prevalent on campuses.</p>
<p>You and jonri are very big on casting females as the helpless victims with no recourse. They shouldn’t report. They can’t report. What the hell CAN they do? Anyone who has the temerity to suggest that unless and until women STAND UP FOR THEMSELVES–no mater how difficult it is, and no one is minimizing that in the slightest-- will change is a rape apologist according to you. I beg to differ.</p>
<p>It’s like there is a script running in your head and it doesn’t make any difference what anyone says: you just want to make everyone conform to your predetermined categories.</p>
<p>dodgersmom-
Unfortunately, with acquaintance rape things are not always so clear cut. Here’s a rather graphic example.</p>
<p>A girl and a guy she’s dated a few times go to a party and both get drunk. They return to his room to make out and after some fondling, disrobe. As he is, apparently consensually, penetrating her she realizes he has not put on a condom and tells him to stop. He thrusts a few more times and ejaculates. Is this rape or consensual sex? Should he be arrested, brought before a school disciplinary board, or simply shunned as a bad boyfriend? What responsibility does she have for the situation?</p>
<p>This is a typically “fraught” subject. It’s distressing to see some of my favorite posters being attacked. </p>
<p>I want to say, once again, that I’m encouraged by Amherst’s response to Angie’s op ed piece. I think it is an entirely appropriate response both to her piece and to the additional information they have since received. I want to say, however, that if an organization had run around with a similarly racist t-shirt on, they would have been disciplined immediately. I think a no tolerance policy similar to that of racism needs to be in place for derogatory objectification of women. The fact that this was a “conversation” and not immediate grounds for suspension tells us a good amount about what the institution is willing to see as integrity.</p>
<p>That said, I imagine things are changing.</p>
<p>What I sense, these days, is a new shift. I sense that young women no longer feel stigmatized by rape, as they once did. Violated, yes, but not stigmatized. They seem willing to come forward, name themselves, and state their piece. I am also very encouraged by how much support they are recieving from their male peers. I think this is all a step in the right direction.</p>
<p>As for those of you who wonder why the women don’t report immediately, I would simply say that the damage this crime does to these women, physically, emotionally, and psychologically is astonishing, nearly crippling, for a few days. It is a shock to everything they believed, about themselves, about their world, about other people. It is staggering the amount of damage. It is not always possible for them to get up and go to the hospital. Some girls are actually unable to speak for several hours or several days. It’s more than you can imagine. And then the PTSD sets in. </p>
<p>When I think of the pill they are developing to erase the traumatic memories which cause PTSD I think frequently about these young women and how many of them would rather take that pill than prosecute. I’m guess there would be many more than 50% who would choose to forget rather than to punish. When they don’t go to the hospital or to the police, they are experiencing a form of denial quite frequent in the victims of violent crime. They can’t Help that. This is why there is nothing so important as truly supportive people and staff to assist them in getting to that point asap.</p>
<p>I also hear that Mom of Three and Consolation are not blaming the victim. They just want so badly for there to be a way for these girls to take back their power. I understand this. We all, essentially, want the same thing.</p>
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<p>Amen. Obviously this subject is stirring up a lot of emotion. The big problem, to me, is that the two colleges being discussed here are supposed to be the gold standard for LACs. OK, maybe they aren’t so esteemed specifically BECAUSE OF how they treat women, but shouldn’t that be a given? It is 2012. If we can’t hold two of our “elite” colleges to the highest standard on every measure, including the environment they offer roughly half of the population, why should we respect them at all?</p>
<p>I know nothing of this story except what’s been published – by the author, statements by the college president and board. I am not qualified to speak to the veracity or completeness or objectivity of the young woman or anyone involved in this sad situation.</p>
<p>I will say, however, that my kid spent some time with the Amherst counseling staff during a period of distress (nothing so serious and hurtful as rape or trauma or crime – just a stressed out college kid who’d lost his sense of direction for a brief time) and he said the counselors there were amazing. Incredibly smart and artful in how they asked questions that brought him to a self-awareness that he never could have gotten to by someone else just telling him. He said, apart from the help and perspective they provided him, he was just so impressed watching how they practice their profession… even as they practiced it on him.</p>
<p>Are the results of the surveys for other schools available somewhere? This is certainly something many will want to take into account when choosing a college. Beyond the survey that has been mentioned, does anyone recommend another way to get information about the safety of one college community vs others?</p>
<p><a href=“http://security.williams.edu/files/2010/04/CrimeStats20121.pdf[/url]”>http://security.williams.edu/files/2010/04/CrimeStats20121.pdf</a>
<a href=“http://www.hupd.harvard.edu/2012-2013_PIS_final.pdf[/url]”>http://www.hupd.harvard.edu/2012-2013_PIS_final.pdf</a> (“Confidential” reports seem to be when the U health svcs reports to police without identifying details.) p.35
<a href=“http://www.duke.edu/police/news_stats/clery/2012DukeASR.pdf[/url]”>http://www.duke.edu/police/news_stats/clery/2012DukeASR.pdf</a> p.26</p>
<p>Google the school.edu and security report. </p>
<p>Required by the Clery Act.</p>
<p>Some colleges publish a campus-security annual record of crimes on campus. For smaller colleges the typical crimes may be theft and acquaintance rape.</p>
<p>Male and female or parents of only boys or only girls may have a different take on this scenario, on their third date</p>
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<p>My understanding is that even minutes later or seconds before it’s over for him, if she asks to stop he has to stop, otherwise it’s rape. </p>
<p>Is he in his right mind at that moment?</p>
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<p>Thank you, poetgrl. This is it exactly.</p>
<p>I have no delusion that reporting is a panacea for the individual victim. Alice Sebold, in her book “Lucky” describes how she was raped by a stranger while an undergrad at Syracuse, reported it to the police, saw it through a successful prosecution of the rapist, and STILL realized years later that she was suffering from PTSD. (This was, IIRC, before the concept of PTSD was as widely known as it is now.) I don’t remember all of the fine details of her story, but she did receive support from professors and others. She knew at least one other student was were raped and ultimately committed suicide. I believe that that student was from a culture that deepened the shame victims often feel, and I don’t think she reported the rape. (But my memory could be faulty.)</p>
<p>Women who are raped are violated and traumatized. but they should never feel SHAME. They should not feel be powerless forever because they were overpowered once. I think the two probably go hand in hand: feelings of powerlessness and feelings of shame.</p>
<p>Cons, for the record, you’re male or female? The shame starts with the utter powerlessness to defend onesself or one’s interests. Or to have a voice at the time of the incident. For women, especially as we first come into self-determination, it’s a multi-wound blow. And, unlike, say a hit or push, it’s about the most private aspects of our bodies. Then comes all the crap about disease, pregnancy, etc. </p>
<p>The campus Clery reports show interesting detail on definitions and policies. It may be true some gals shuld not get so drunk. But, NOR should young men assume they can define consent.</p>
<p>Imo, it is very important not to prejudge how all this affects another female-- not to say, oh, I’d just “get over it” so they should, too.</p>
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<p>If a young man is having sex with a girl and his dear old great-grandmother suddenly opens the door and hobbles in, do you think that young man will stop having sex? Or will he keep on humping because “he just can’t stop”? How about if the roof starts caving in?</p>
<p>I think this is the number one thing that would cut down on rape–teaching boys from an early age that yes they CAN stop in “mid-sex”, they do have that ability, they are not mindless animals.</p>
<p>Lookingforward is correct. You can find many colleges reporting this type of data in an annual security report. Remember, though, it only appears if it’s reported. </p>
<p>I believe it’s a multi-step process. The first step is to make sure that young men and women are enlightened and understand how to keep themselves personally safe in a very nuanced manner - robbery, assault, rape, heavy alcohol consumption - people can be violated in many ways and campuses can lull people into a false sense of security. Many colleges do some of this in orientation, but really it makes more sense about week 2. Most people will still believe that things will never happen to ‘them.’ Second we need to ensure that people feel empowered to report when they have been violated and third they need to understand the path - the police, counseling, college channels. And lastly we need to have enlightened people in the points of triage. I do not believe that it is entirely the responsibility of police or entirely the responsibility or the college. Situations are sometimes not as crystal clear as an assault on the edge of campus late at night in the dark and a process needs to be in place that is consistent and understandable. Pieces of this are in place, but there is work to be done.</p>
<p>I’m not going to get into a p***ing match about when a guy can stop or not stop because well I’m not a guy, but I will say both sexes need to understand how to keep themselves safely in control of themselves and their surroundings. Perhaps like in 5th grade and they separated the boys and girls for the infamous videos we need to separate the boys and the girls when they start college and talk about personal safety.</p>
<p>I absolutely support those who want women to be empowered to report rape to the police when it happens. As I said earlier, I’d like to see more training and orientation on all campuses making it very clear how it’s done and emphasizing the need to do so. I don’t know how many trained sexual assault counselors are on school campuses but I’d think their contact numbers should be as familiar to all as 911 and that they should be the ones so well versed in bringing women who have been assaulted to the ER and to the police that the person in trauma doesn’t have to have the wherewithal to handle it all on her own. I’d also like these folks to be very clear about what constitutes rape and for all freshmen to be required to attend trainings that remove all doubt. </p>
<p>The separate issue to me, and where I hear a faint note of disgust–maybe it’s frustration, I may be misreading this-- coming from some posters is the notion that counselors should be anything less than supportive in dealing with rape reported months after the crime. Perhaps it’s not possible to succeed in a disciplinary proceeding. Perhaps it’s not possible to report the rape. It doesn’t mean the rape hasn’t had profound impact and is still haunting the victim. It also doesn’t mean that the accused hasn’t done this before or since and that the corroborating account can’t be helpful. No matter what, it is still possible for a trained counselor to take the woman at her word, know the very predictable symptoms of PTSD, specifically those related to rape, and to provide support for that woman. I imagine that anyone coming forward after the fact doesn’t need to hear exasperation at allowing herself to be victimized again by not reporting the rape, wringing her hands and doing nothing else, etc. No doubt she knows all this. What she needs is a caring person to help her to heal, to remove the sense of shame and guilt, to understand the actions she’s taken. And again, whether you doubt this one woman’s account or not, there are a long succession of similar accounts out there that colleges do a poor job of supporting women who have been victims of sexual assault.</p>
<p>momofthreeboys, we may have cross posted but I agree 100%. I think programs during orientation and throughout the first semester, depending on what sort of freshman seminar/advising is offered at the school, should be mandatory and that the reporting process be made clear to all. It’s not just the individual either. Friends–male and female-- should understand the process and be more clear-headed and able to bring the young woman to the police, ER, etc.</p>
<p>A quick response to the ridiculous post about when a boy can or cannot stop having sex. If the young man in question cannot stop having sex, if he is like a dog rather than a person with another person, he is going to be so incredibly ineffective as a lover that he would have been better off if his parents spoke to him about sex to begin with.</p>
<p>Also, that is such a ludicrous example. If a young man is in the middle of a sexual encounter and his partner is equally engaged, then I sincerely doubt there is going to be a rape report or charge. People who believe young women are running around calling it rape when it was a consensual sexual experience really need to re-examine what they consider consensual and mutual. </p>
<p>Both young men and young women need to be aware of the dangers of drunken sexual encounters outside monogomous, committed relationships, for different reasons and in different ways. However, any young man who cannot stop himself once he starts would do well to make sure he has verbal and specific consent before he gets involved in something that would cause him to lose complete control of his body and his mind.</p>
<p>I think the amnesty programs in place at some colleges are important. All colleges and universities should have them. Very few people will put themselves in a position of helping someone who needs help if they fear retribution for anything ‘they’ have been doing. We all have inner alarm bells that ring when we see a good friend doing something we know they probably should not do…whether it’s allowing a friend to leave the library alone late at night or a friend losing control at a party.</p>
<p>Also, just for the record, I think most young men are much better than this. It has not been my experience that my daughters have encountered a bunch of piggish men. They have dated and had relationships with very considerate, intelligent and aware young men. I think people who still see men this way are in the minority, and that most young men would be offended by the idea that they have no control over themselves. Really. This is the same type of thinking that used to say you could do nothing about fistfights on the playground.</p>
<p>Well, the no tolerance policy has certainly made the playground fistfight a pretty rare occurance, these days. Men and boys are fully capable of controlling their behavior, as are young women.</p>