<p>Unfortunately, probably a substantial percentage. But, how does that change the fact that the conduct is not beneficial for the school or, according to the stats, for the students who contact STDs or get pregnant?</p>
<p>I would love to know how many students have been disciplined severely under Williams’ “mutually incapacitated sexual intercourse policy”. I applaud the idea behind it completely. It’s a mistake for anyone to have sex while he or she is drunk, especially with a drunk partner. However, I think that’s a mistake that lots and lots (and lots and lots) of people make, especially when they are 18-22 and in college.</p>
<p>I know the Williams of today is not exactly like the Williams of my youth. But at the Williams of my youth, if they had suspended everyone who engaged in mutually incapacitated sexual intercourse there, it would have been a very lonely, quiet place.</p>
<p>I am suspicious of rules, however well-intentioned, that are basically there to be enforced selectively.</p>
<p>I found this story even more heartbreaking given the fact that Angie apparently had no family to look to for support and guidance. The unpleasant thought crossed my mind that perhaps that might have had something to do with the way she was treated by the Amherst counselor. Apparently, they felt totally in control of this young woman and her future.</p>
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</p>
<p>I’m sorry, but … WHAT? There is a possibility, however slight, that the young woman fabricated the whole story. There is a possibility, however slight, that she exaggerated some aspects of it. I am not saying she did fabricate or exaggerate anything. And I am not saying I am not sympathetic to her. What I am saying, however, is that there is another side to this story. That’s not arguable; there were two people involved, not just one. And what I am saying is that I do not have enough facts to declare that I am certain of what actually happened in this case. More than this, I am stunned that anyone would presume to say he or she is certain about what happened based on the very limited information available. This isn’t a question of blaming the victim. It is a question of using critical thinking skills, logic and reason rather than one’s gut to make judgments about a situation where so much is at stake for all parties involved.</p>
<p>And with regard to this:</p>
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</p>
<p>All we have as evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the school administration is what this young woman wrote in the school newspaper. There is the possibility that counseling professionals (even if they fumbled in significant ways) did the right thing by seeing that this young woman was hospitalized in a psychiatric ward. Whatever the facts of the case, she could have been seriously mentally ill before and after the incident.</p>
<p>That was my reaction as well, absweetmarie. Getting someone to a psychiatric ward is evidence of caring and responsibility – and an admission that the person requires a level of professional help beyond “there, there, dear, here’s a tissue, I’m sure it will be all right.” Not that it’s pleasant to go to a psychiatric ward, but imagine the repercussions if they hadn’t done so and this young lady had injured / harmed herself physically.</p>
<p>I think the Williams rule is idiotic.</p>
<p>IRL, the most common scenario in campus rape situations is a very, very drunk girl and a not drunk, but has been drinking, guy. In most states, the guy has committed a crime if he has sex with the girl in that situation.</p>
<p>Enter Williams. If the girl reports the fact she has been raped–and legally she has been, even if she can’t prove it–she’s subject to discipline. I’m sure that gives young women a real incentive to report it.</p>
<p>I think that the Amherst student made it very clear that she derived great benefit from her stay in the psychiatric hospital, despite her initial fear that they would just give her pills to mask her pain. She actually received therapy, and it actually helped.</p>
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<p>My point is this has gone from a crime, where both sides get to present a case, to a story of one woman’s experience written in a newspaper. We all know what the guy’s side of the story would be; any one of us could write a reasonable approximation of it. Printing it would not change her story, or her history. </p>
<p>I really object to them not letting her change dorm rooms to get further away from her “alleged” rapist.</p>
<p>Clearly the article is written from only one perspective, and we may never have the benefit of considering any other perspective. But if Angie’s account is accurate, then having her hospitalized was just about the only thing the counselor did right.</p>
<p>The article alleges that the counselor would not facilitate a dorm change, told her pressing charges would be useless and that there wasn’t much they could do -he was about to graduate. Angie also alleges that she was asked by the sexual assault counselor if it wasn’t after all just a “bad hook-up”. But the thing that really stood out to me was that she alleges that she was told to “forgive and forget”. Sorry but I am just not seeing any professionalism or caring here at all. IF the story is accurate, it is clear to me that they wanted this all to go away.</p>
<p>But the reason they sent her to the psycho ward was she made a vague comment about suicide. The reason she made the vague comment about suicide was because the person in the administration she was talking to double-victimized her. It’s NOT something the counselor did right.</p>
<p>I agree, jonri, that the Williams College policy seems to create a disincentive to report for a young woman who has been raped while intoxicated. I can imagine that the fear of discipline would prevent many young rape victims from coming forward. Having said that, it would interest me to know what, if anything, the Williams administration has done to address this. (Surely this catch-22 has occurred to someone there?!?!) Perhaps I am naive, but it would please me if the policy did serve to dissuade at least some students from drinking to excess.</p>
<p>Mini, with all due respect, all we know is what this young woman reported as the reason she was sent to the psych ward. It is quite possible her report is not wholly accurate, especially if she was ill enough at the time to require hospitalization. </p>
<p>Basically, the facts of what this young woman alleges are what the Amherst administration has to suss out. Anyone who has not read the whole thread, please read Hanna’s post #15 and consider this from a counselor’s point of view. I am not personally convinced that this young woman is a wholly reliable narrator based on what I have read. That is not to say I don’t believe she was traumatized but that I think it’s possible mental illness colored her response to the incident and its aftermath. I am not saying I don’t think a crime occurred but that I am not convinced of the absolute truth of everything this woman is claiming.</p>
<p>I didn’t see that Williams rule, but can someone point me to it? I didn’t see it in the student handbook. What I did find was this:</p>
<p>An individual is unable to give consent if he or she is:</p>
<ul>
<li>substantially physically or mentally impaired by alcohol or drugs</li>
<li>forced or threatened</li>
<li>physically incapable of resisting assault, asleep, or unconscious
Unless an individual is substantially physically or mentally impaired, consent while under the influence of alcohol or drugs is valid consent. </li>
</ul>
<p>Meanwhile, the four students expelled for rape are not listed as sex offenders anywhere, carry no record, and are free to do what they will. And there are several dozen other rapists prowling the campus. </p>
<p>The Williamstown Police has precisely TWO (!) officers trained in sexual assault investigations. There were HUNDREDS of sexual assaults on campus last year, including 44 women and 3 men who were raped. Prosecutors have to prove cases beyond a reasonable doubt. I think the idea that greater justice will come from reporting to the local police is a pipe dream.</p>
<p>“Mini, with all due respect, all we know is what this young woman reported as the reason she was sent to the psych ward. It is quite possible her report is not wholly accurate, especially if she was ill enough at the time to require hospitalization.”</p>
<p>Oh, I don’t doubt she was ill - after dealing with a college like that, I sure would be.</p>
<p>Well…searching for info on the web, I found a worse case from Wesleyan University. The frat Beta Theta Pi was unofficially known as the “rape factory.” Wesleyan sent out an email to all students in March 2010 warning them that several alleged incidents had occurred at the off campus frat and saying students should avoid it.</p>
<p>In the fall of 2010 Jane Doe entered Wesleyan. Unaware of the email, she went to a Saturday night Halloween party at the frat and was raped. She reported it to her RA who essentially did nothing. She couldn’t get medical treatment on Sunday because the health center was closed. She had no way to get to a hospital. </p>
<p>As a result of her complaint, Wesleyan took measures against the frat. Her name leaked and the frat guys showed up outside her dorm for protests. </p>
<p>The young man who raped her was not a Wesleyan student. He was a guest of a Beta member. He plead guilty to reduced charges and is serving a 15 month sentence. </p>
<p>After the frat guys’ protest, Wesleyan let the frat back on campus.</p>
<p>The young woman is now suing. </p>
<p>[Wesleyan</a> rape lawsuit: Federal Lawsuit Says Wesleyan Failed To Protect Woman From Assault At ‘Rape Factory’ - Hartford Courant](<a href=“http://articles.courant.com/2012-10-05/news/hc-wesleyan-rape-lawsuit-1006-20121005_1_wesleyan-university-student-wesleyan-community-lawsuit]Wesleyan”>http://articles.courant.com/2012-10-05/news/hc-wesleyan-rape-lawsuit-1006-20121005_1_wesleyan-university-student-wesleyan-community-lawsuit)</p>
<p>Obviously, these are allegations. However, I don’t think many young men would accept a 15 month prison sentence unless they did something wrong. And the fact that the frat guys held a protest outside the victim’s dorm --which lead to Wesleyan revoking its punishment is mind boggling.</p>
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</p>
<p>I don’t think you are naive at all. If a parent looked their student right in the eye and said “this policy means if you get drunk and have sex with another drunk you can get tossed out” and if you do --------- That is incentive.</p>
<p>If an RA has a complaint from someone that their roommate is engaging in drunken sex in their room, that can “out” the violation. Same thing if someone gets jilted and reports that their “ex” is having drunken sex with someone new. With cell phone cameras and the definition of the sexual conduct including oral sex on both parties, there are lots of ways drunk students could be caught.</p>
<p>mini–here it is
<a href=“http://dean.williams.edu/?page_id=2069[/url]”>http://dean.williams.edu/?page_id=2069</a>
<a href=“Williams College”>Williams College;
<p>“Obviously, these are allegations. However, I don’t think many young men would accept a 15 month prison sentence unless they did something wrong.”</p>
<p>Note that he wasn’t convicted of any sex offense. Just shows you how difficult it is for a prosecutor to deal with sex offense charges. (I mean it was called “The Rape Factory”!)</p>
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</p>
<p>This article addresses the process of plea bargaining and the incentive to take one even if innocent. Also, 5 teenagers CONFESSED to the brutal rape of the jogger in Central Park when NONE of them raped her.</p>
<p>[Innocent</a> people confessing is American justice working as designed. - Slate Magazine](<a href=“http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/readme/2002/12/why_innocent_people_confess.html]Innocent”>Innocent people confessing is American justice working as designed.)</p>
<p>mini </p>
<p>From the Williams website:</p>
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</p>
<p>Here’s an article from the Wesleyan campus paper:
[Lawsuit</a> Filed Against Wesleyan andBeta - News - The Wesleyan Argus](<a href=“http://wesleyanargus.com/2012/10/18/lawsuit-against-wesleyan-and-beta-makes-national-headlines/]Lawsuit”>The Wesleyan Argus | Lawsuit Filed Against Wesleyan and Beta)</p>
<p>So I still didn’t see where it says both students get kicked out.</p>