momofthreeboys, ok.
We are talking about the investigation.
I am going with what Meggs and Cappleman said. Actual prosecuters. Meggs said the investigation wasn’t done properly.
Whether Winston assaulted the girl or not is speculation.
That may be dstark although the police did quite a bit in the early part of the investigation for sure, but I don’t think that young lady had a very good attorney unfortunately. The attorney could have pressed the prosecutor’s office alot harder if she had a case. I think that is the root of it, but given the existing evidence, or at least what I could uncover there was no case that supported. Video from the bar and testimony from the cab driver could have sealed the deal for the accuser OR supported even more the accused testimony so no surprise to me that the prosecutor wished for more that made a decision easier. I’m not sure what you mean about your last comment, clearly they had sex, they both agreed about that statement.
MODERATOR’S NOTE:
As per Terms of Service, please do not quote a wall of text from a copyrighted source. Quoting a few sentences to highlight your point is OK; quoting paragraphs is not. Insert a link to the original source instead. Thank you.
Momofthreeboys, you are speculating.
Even after we are told by the prosecuters the investigation was screwed up, You can’t admit the investigation was screwed up. 
It happens. Sometimes investigations are screwed up.
The police may have done “quite a bit,” but not in furtherance of the investigation. Here are some minor little details the investigating police officer, who by the greatest coincidence also worked for the Florida State athletic department, neglected:
- Finding out who the alleged perpetrator was: the alleged victim identified him as a freshman football player at Florida State. It wouldn't have been difficult to identify which football player it was, but the police never did that. Eventually, after a month had passed, the alleged victim found out his name and told the police.
- Getting the security videos from the bar where the two people met, before it was erased weeks later.
- Getting the video of the incident that was taken by a friend of the alleged assailant, before it was erased days later.
In other words, he didn’t investigate. Now he says the victim was uncooperative. She was cooperative enough to go to the police, and to go to the hospital for an assault examination, so his story that she was uncooperative sounds like a lie.
Screwing up the investigation in this case doesn’t change much. If anything I suspect it could have damaged her case more than his. Her blood alcohol and drug screen indicated she probably wasn’t incapacitated a few hours earlier and if she walked out of the club and into the cab or was shown on video as anything less than falling down drunk she would certainly have no case. Her bruising was more consistent with the accused story than hers according to the documents. She had a stronger case without any video or cab driver testimony. unless she really was falling down drunk. I really believe the prosecutor wanted a stronger story one way or the other and he had nothing except what he said and she said, what her friends said and what his friends said and the results of the tox and drug screen. His frustration with the police is understandable - video tape from the bar and testimony from the cab driver would have helped to tilt the case one way or the other so yes, I agree the police were not as thorough as they could have been.
She potentially had a case minus the bar video and the cab driver, her lawyer screwed up and her friends didn’t really help her. If I understand the timeline, the police did plenty at the onset but they basically halted the investigation before they even knew who she was accusing, if anything that bothers me, because police do need to take these accusations seriously and let the prosecutors decide if there is a case or not even if in their mind everything is telling them they have an uncooperative witness and potentially no crime…d**n the workload, if we have to elect more prosecutors in this country then so be it.
This story was never really about the college other than they were two students and everything to do with how police investigate and what prosecutors need. If she chose to report it to the college and never reported it to the police the college would have had even less to go on.
Momofthreeboys, did the investigators screw up?
Yes or no?
Now I understand. Due process and proper procedures only matter for the guy, @momofthreeboys. If a guy is found guilty of sexual assault under improper procedures, it’s a terrible thing even though he well may be guilty. But if a guy is not found guilty of sexual assault, even though with proper procedures he might have been found guilty, hey no problem! There’s a good chance he was innocent, so it doesn’t matter if the police bother to investigate.
I’m certainly not in a position to determine yes or no whether they “screwed up.” The prosecutor thinks they did isn’t that enough? I think they would have done a better job if they would have gotten any video from the bar and tried harder to track down the cab driver - so yes in that respect I don’t think they were as thorough as they could have been which would have assisted the prosecutor. Whether or not it would have helped or hurt her I already speculated about. She may have had a weaker case with that or she may have had a stronger case…it’s all pure speculation. I think the prosecutor would have felt more comfortable with a more black and white case clearly. His decision was mirrored also by the retired judge who assisted the college.
CF as is often the case, I have no clue what you are talking about.
I understand CF’s post.
It was a simple question momofthreeboys. You can’t answer the question. Yet you have no problem commenting on the Columbia case, or the Michigan case, or a Duke case, or an OXY case.
I agree people are biased. There are degrees of biases.
Momrarh is biased but she knows the investgation was botched in the FSU case.
The reason I think CF could be a great judge, besides being very bright and logical, is she can overcome her biases when looking at a case.
I have read 1,000 posts of yours on this topic. It doesn’t look like you can overcome your biases.
All this stuff you write about fair hearings and due process… It’s a one way street. Only guys are allowed on that street.
Yeah…I am going with Meggs.
If my son or daughter was the accuser and the case was botched in a similar fashion as the FSU case, my kids would sue for $20 million and settle for $10 million.
FSU gave information about the investigation to the defense attorneys. Wow! See you in court.
I hope the FSU civil case is not tried in Tallahassee.
I agree CF would be a great judge. She keeps adjusting her point of view based on the facts being presented. imho.
Her posts have all seemed very clear to me, except sometimes the math ones, but that is my own shortcoming and she went out of her way to explain them to me.
I think you all want to try cases, I’m more interested in people’s rights. I think we’re all biased to one extent or another with regard to what we read and what we think about guilt or innocence. But it’s up to the courts to figure that out. For all practical purposes the legal path of an accused and an accuser have similar rights. Both are entitled to representation - check that box in the FSU case, both are entitled to use their legal protections, check that box in the FSU case. I do not see in the FSU case where Ms. Kinsman was denied her rights.This isn’t about whether or not I think she is telling the truth. You want it to be, but I specifically asked to find a case where an accuser’s rights were denied and then I’d tell you what i thought because you were upset that I kept harping on cases where men were denied their rights. I’m an equal opportunity libertarian. You found a case where I don’t think her rights were denied. Put one out there from a woman whose rights were violated and I’ll respond.
My advice to Ms. Kinsman attorney would be to file a suit against the police if they in fact violated their process and procedures. I’d be all for that.That’s the path I would take. They let her down and her lawyer was asleep at the switch. I think you’re picking the wrong target dstark. We need our police to be thorough and to do the best job they can for every citizen.
Nope. I am picking the right target.
The DA told us. 
I care about people’s rights. Both sexes.
You don’t.
The investigation stunk. A bad investigation affects people’s rights.
You are the one trying cases, momofthreeboys… And the guys always win.
If my son ever gets in trouble, I want you on that jury.
What do you mead DStark? That the DA said the investigation was bad and so her rights were denied?
Not sure what to think of this case. Some articles seem to show he is guilty, but the actual investigative report and medical report don’t provide much real evidence. The investigation was flawed, which was unfair to both parties. The blood tests showed her BAC was not high enough for her to have been incapacitated. The tape or cab driver may not have been conclusive or may have worked against either the victim or the accused. She also seems to have been reluctant to press charges and had her aunt/attorney speaking for her.
Seems to be a classic he said she said case. He is almost certainly a womanizing, entitled jerk, but the evidence for something more than that is not clear. Doesn’t mean he didn’t do it, just not enough evidence.
What is appalling is how this woman was treated at FSU, by fans and students. Certainly, the school should have done more to protect her.
I see now that in January 2014 Ms. Kinsman’s attorney said they were filing a case against the police. As i said that would have been my move.
In a January 12014 ABC news piece:
But lately it says she’s filing against the college? I wonder why she dropped the charges against the entity that is being blamed for failing her? There’s alot strange about this case I’ll give you that so many large gaps in time so many starts and stops by the police, the accuser, her attorney…none of this is helping her.
@momofthreeboys, suppose for the sake of argument a woman was raped, she immediately went to the police and was able to identify her rapist, and there was security video that would have conclusively proved that she was raped. But then the police did nothing. If she wanted to sue the police, what would the tort be? That is, what would she sue them for?
She might not be suing the police because police indifference and incompetence are not torts.
Here’s all 250 pages of documentation. There is a noticeable gap between the flurry of the original investigation and then the resurrection of the investigation which probably followed the freedom of information request from the media. The police incident reports begins on page 24.
You absolutely can sue the police - for misconduct.
What would be the basis for this hypothetical lawsuit?
The only angle I could come up with was that they did not attempt to interview anyone at the bar or the cab driver. The tox screens etc. came in and were added to the documentation and there were two notations that Ms. Kinsman did not want to pursue…all this before they knew who the accused was. They only had one first name of one of the guys and knew that the person whose name they had was a freshman football starter. So they didn’t have much, but i find it odd that they didn’t talk to the bar…at that point they would NOT have had the tox screens back that indicated that she was not incapacitated by alcohol or any other drugs. So all they knew was that she was claiming assault and drugging and potentially abuse (her friend who called the police claimed she’d been hit on the head). Even if she didn’t want to pursue at that time, it seems like it would have been a more complete report - that they could possibly close if she never wanted to pursue - with the information from the bar. Remember they didn’t have the tox screens or BAL back for some time. I find this odd…that they didn’t at a minimum stop by the bar. Feels negligent to me.