A ranking of colleges producing the highest % of Doctoral students

Parents Forum
41

<p>What I see is that the undergraduate college that I attended produced about 25% of the number of PhD's that the college I teach at produced. But the college I attended has only about 4% as many students as the one I teach at. </p>

<p>My alma mater gave me a roughly 20% probability of going on to get a PhD. Of course I had the choice to go to professional school (turned down some very fine law schools). Plenty of my classmates did go to professional schools -- maybe even more than went on to earn PhD's. But I've never seen those numbers.</p>

<p>Thanks again, ID, for your informative posts.</p>

42

<p>Thanks Coureur, I knew I could count on you to explain statistics basics to me. And, that makes perfect sense. Thank you.</p>

<p>I guess what gets me about all of the "proof" that colleges (and sometimes parents and students) fling out to show that they are <em>better</em> than other schools is that it is often very difficult to sort out what the real meaning of the "proof" is. An example that just gets me every time I see it are the many, many schools who tout in their brochures or websites that they have been called "one of the top schools in the west, or New York, or Podunksville" or "best value, best engineering program, best library" by some guidebook or rating. Makes me always want to shout "Best compared to who?" We, as consumers, always have to try to understand just what this really means to US, as individuals. Besides, that is, the right to brag that my college (or my child's) is the "best" school for basket-weavers.</p>

<p>Isn't it interesting how no one wants to brag about being the "best" for things like drop-out rates, highest tuition, or most crime on campus. ;)</p>

43

<p>I don't know how to put how I see the difference without sounding flip or offending someone-
When I think of someone who would do well at one of these prep schools for Phd candidates, I think of a friend of ours who is a chemical physicist, who thrills to discusions of string theory, and hopefully still realizes that the Seahawks are going to the SUPERBOWL- but I couldn't count on it.
I think of my doctor and her sister who is also a doctor- who went to college about 25 years ago. My doctor went to Stanford and her sister went to Pomona. My MD was supposedly the smarter sister, but says that she thinks her sister actually received the more intense education.</p>

<p>But it does depend on fit- mydaughter wanted a school where she was going to have to work hard- where most of the students were going to be more academically capable and would stimulate her to excel. She didn't want a school where she was in the top 20%</p>

<p>A friend who I mentioned before- who began at the university when she was 14- completed 4 yrs of high school in one year, then began a double major of physics and astronomy with a minor in Russian, did fine at a huge university, albeit in a special program- she didn't need to have other students to stimulate her to excel, because she was far beyond many of them anyway.</p>

44

<p>Carolyn, A probability question...I should go ask my kids. :)</p>

<p>It comes down to how much the school makes the kids vs the kids make the school.</p>

<p>Here is one line of reasoning...
ABC has 20,000 students. DEF has 2,000. ABC has 1,000 students that enter the school wanting to become PHDs. So does DEF. They all do become PHDs.</p>

<p>Now ABC has 5% that graduate and become PHD's and DEF has 50%.</p>

<p>Does DEF really do a better job and should it be higher ranked?</p>

<p>Example 2</p>

<p>There is the argument that if you go to a particular school, the atmosphere is more likely to motivate a student to become a PHD.</p>

<p>We don't have any data for this. </p>

<p>Schools pick their students. Does a school like Swarthmore graduate a huge % of PHDs because of the school or because they choose likely candidates to get PHDs?</p>

<p>Would Swat still end up with a high percentage of PHDs if they dumped their student body and took 2500 kids randomly from SDSU?</p>

<p>What do you think?</p>

<p>Then there is the question of the relationship between income and becoming a PHD. Liberal Arts schools usually have a wealthier student body compared to larger schools. How does this fit in? (I would love to see these stats).</p>

<p>Then there is the problem of having a PHD meaning some kind of superior intelligence. </p>

<p>Some PHDs have intelligence a foot wide and a mile deep.</p>

<p>What about people that have intelligence a mile wide and a foot deep? Are they not smart?</p>

<p>Then we have people that have intelligence that are a foot wide and a foot deep.</p>

<p>OK. Maybe these people aren't smart. :)</p>

45

<p>You can tell who the insomniacs are by reading this thread. Who else would be discussing the finer points of statistics and doctoral prep at 11 PM (and that's PACIFIC time. ID, there is NO hope for you!)</p>

<p>Good night everyone.</p>

46

<p>hey people are still honking their horns and yelling outside-
I wont be going to sleep for hours-
SUPERBOWL BOUND</p>

47

<p>At this hour, some of the posts are getting a mile deep. So yes, good night.</p>

<p>(We welcome folks from the Emerald City to the big game to be held in our state in 2 weeks -- though I'm rooting for Pittsburgh.)</p>

48

<p>"Again, my statistics has rusted in the years since I finished my MBA, so I'd appreciate a brief primer on probability and where the gap may lie in my reasoning."</p>

<p>Did you hear about the couple that had three children, and decided against having a fourth when they read that every fourth child is Chinese?</p>

<p>If you're proposing to select a person at random from a group with known characteristics, you increase your odds of choosing someone with that characteristic by choosing at random from a pool where that trait is more common. </p>

<p>When you're talking about adding a person chosen at random from outside a group, to a group with known characteristics, you don't change the new member's likelihood of having the characteristic unless it's a mutable characteristic that can be influenced by association with the new group. </p>

<p>It's hard to establish to what degree an individual's likelihood of completing a Ph.D. program is influenced by attending a particular school. My guess is that there's some influence, but that the differences in numbers are more a function of who decides to various school than what happens to them in the schools.</p>

<p>I could be wrong. It seems as though some of the schools that appear high on this list are known for tough grading. It's possible that these grading policies are given insufficient weight by medical school committees, which could paradoxically raise the percentage of graduates going on for Ph.D.'s.</p>

49

<p>
[quote]
Schools pick their students. Does a school like Swarthmore graduate a huge % of PHDs because of the school or because they choose likely candidates to get PHDs?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Both. </p>

<p>There is research that indicates peer effects are significant in higher education and that even students who are "mismatched" with the ethos of their school tend towards outcomes associated with that school.</p>

<p>Here's a discussion paper by the Williams Project on the Economics of Higher Education that deals with these issues:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.williams.edu/wpehe/DPs/DP-68.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/wpehe/DPs/DP-68.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Williams Economics department is interested in this because it is their contention that the students enrolled at a college are actually a key quality component of the product being offered for sale. In other words, the students are both the customer and the product being sold.</p>

<p>There are many more discussion papers where that one came from:</p>

<p><a href="http://www.williams.edu/wpehe/downloads1.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.williams.edu/wpehe/downloads1.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Look at any of the papers with "Peer Effects" in the title.</p>

50

<p>I think this listing is fascinating and valuable. What I would really like to see is a ranking based on the percentage of students who enroll for advanced degrees of any kind including not just doctorates but MBA's, law and medical school. IMO this listing indicates which schools do well in preparing students for advanced degrees and have a culture which inspires kids to go on for advanced education. I think this ranking is at least as valuable as the ranking from USNWR.</p>

51

<p>Interesteddad, thanks for those references. I read the first one and it seems pretty convincing from a first read. Of course, while it can show that the degree of success in producing future PhD's is a result of both selection and socialization, it can't say how the socialization operates. How much is due to small size of the school, small classes and close faculty-student interaction, research opportunities, quality of the faculty or teaching, or other factors? But this kind of analysis seems to be a good start, and it pretty much rules out the idea that PhD rates are only a matter of selection (both self-selection and the institution's selectivity).</p>

<p>I also agree with edad that it would be interesting to calculate success in other post-graduate educational areas, in particular for the largest professional fields. But I suspect that gathering the data would be much harder than what the NSF/NAS does for PhD degrees. The dataset would have to include law, medicine, nursing, business, education, journalism and communications, public health, public administration, social work, and several other fields.</p>

52

<p>I would like to see a study on the number of PHD's who are gainfully employed in their field of study.</p>

53

<p>great question 1sokkermom.</p>

<p>just found a U Washington study on that subject for their PhD's & it has some references to national data (but I haven't looked for the original national data yet).</p>

<p>Have a look at figure 2:
<a href="http://www.grad.washington.edu/stats/phd_survey/gradnotes_99_v1.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.grad.washington.edu/stats/phd_survey/gradnotes_99_v1.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>These statistics are circa 1999...UWash & national PhD unemployment stats are about the same at a little less than than 1.5%, as compared to the then 3% national unemployment rate. So, PhD's look relatively employable, but as you ask, are they in their fields of study? According to the next figure (3) UW's PhD's employed in a job unrelated to their PhD is around 2.5%. No national stats on this figure, but that number, IF representative of the nation, is not as bad as I could have imagined.</p>

<p>Here's the main UW PhD page for anyone else wishing to mine some more....plenty of stats here, by degree and demographics:
<a href="http://www.grad.washington.edu/stats/phd_survey/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.grad.washington.edu/stats/phd_survey/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

54

<p>Thanks for the link Papa. It would be interesting to see a more current and more global study as well. While I agree that the pursuit of a PHD may be a noble cause, it may or may not be the most practical path for many students. I have said it before, as have many others, the number of PHDs a school produces in no way determines the academic quality of an institution, nor does it in any way determine the intelligence of the student body.</p>

55

<p>To me the employment success of Ph.D.'s is not relevant to this ranking. I believe the important consideration is the academic preparation and orientation. To me the academic orientation is very important even if my D does not continue for an advanced degree. I am surprised no one commented on the very high rankings for the music conservatories.</p>

56

<p>the number of PHDs a school produces in no way determines the academic quality of an institution, >></p>

<p>Just a thought, but would anyone make the same argument about the percentage of HIGH SCHOOL graduates going on to college from a particular school? Is using the the percentage of HIGH SCHOOL graduates going on to 4-year colleges from a particular high school also meaningless? Don't most of us assume that a high school sending 90% of graduates on to 4-year colleges is somehow superior to one sending just 50%? Wouldn't most of us prefer to send our children to the high school sending 90% on to college rather than the school that only sends 50%?</p>

<p>Isn't the percentage of college graduates going on to doctoral programs is a similiar measure? Both college enrollment rates and doctoral graduation rates track FUTURE educational attaiment as a measure of CURRENT educational quality. And, one could argue that both have the same limitations re: individual motivation, individual situation, individual intelligence (I hate the word "Intellectual"). And, is a school with 100 graduating seniors sending 90% on to college is a lesser school than one with 1000 graduating seniors sending 90?</p>

<p>Actually, it seems to me that the percentage of high school students going on to 4-year college is actually a WEAKER indicator of quality than doctoral graduation rates, because it says nothing about how many actually graduate from college after they get there. Yet, I don't see us arguing that percentage going on to college is a poor indicator of a high school's educational quality. If we dismiss doctoral rates, then shouldn't we do the same for college enrollment rates when it comes to high schools?</p>

57

<p>"Isn't the percentage of college graduates going on to doctoral programs a similar measure?"</p>

<p>I do not think that the number of students that continue on toward a doctorate degree from a given institution in any way measures the quality of the undergraduate education at that same institution for those who opt not to obtain a doctorate degree. There are many capable intelligent creative students who never have any intention of obtaining a doctorate degree. There are also many students who obtain a doctorate degree because they have no other options (such as employment, medical school, law school, etc.)
To be honest, when my S was looking at colleges two years ago, the PHD production statistic was not even a consideration! I don't think it will be for my daughter either.</p>

58

<p>*Is using the the percentage of HIGH SCHOOL graduates going on to 4-year colleges from a particular high school also meaningless? Don't most of us assume that a high school sending 90% of graduates on to 4-year colleges is somehow superior to one sending just 50%? *</p>

<p>;)
well that would only be if you think that a Ph.d means that you have experience in your field and that it is desirable.
In some fields- it seems pretty much a prereq. For example though my D in biology is fairly confident she can find a job without grad school,according to alums that she has interviewed. But for example a friend who is working with a new BA, has been hired by a environmental firm, but told as soon as someone with a Phd applies she will be reassigned.</p>

<p>When I was in high school, people could still find halfway decent jobs with only a high school education, but when you need a 4 year college degree to fill orders at Amazon, and two years of college to be an aide in the classroom , whether or not you have a Ph.d or at least the background to attempt one, may be more relevant than we want to admit in the professional job market.</p>

59

<p>There are many capable intelligent creative students who never have any intention of obtaining a doctorate degree. There are also many students who obtain a doctorate degree because they have no other options >></p>

<p>OK, but let me play devil's advocate. Doesn't that then mean we also can not say that the percentage of high school students going on to college is meaningless as a measure of the high school's quality for the exact reasons you're citing: There are many intelligent students who never have any intention of going on to college, and also many students who go to college because they have no other options such as worthwhile well paying employment.</p>

60

<p>well that would only be if you think that a Ph.d means that you have experience in your field and that it is desirable.</p>

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<p>Yes BUT - and I'm playing devil's advocate here - you could say the same thing about various college degrees. You could argue that an Electrical engineering major is more desirable (in terms of employement) than an anthropology degree. And, I know many who would argue that high school graduates who go on to get training in a trade such as plumbing or auto mechanics have more employment opportunities than English majors. :) And, of course, just going to college does not mean you will graduate at all.</p>

<p>So, again playing devil's advocate, should we even consider the percentage of students from a particular high school going to 4-year colleges to be a measure of the academic quality of the high school? Seems to me that if we're going to discount doctoral percentages for colleges, we should also discount percentage going to college for high schools.</p>