A ranking of colleges producing the highest % of Doctoral students

<p>"Sokkermom, why do you despise academica and those who prefer to pursue an intellectual life as opposed to a [presumably no-nonsense] career?"</p>

<p>Wow there The Dad. I NEVER said nor implied such a thing. What I did say, once again, is that in my opinion the PhD production of an institution is not a valid measurement of the academic quality of the undergraduate institution, nor in any way is it a valid measurement of the intelligence of the student body. Period.</p>

<p>I do believe that you can pursue an "intellectual Life" (whatever that is) without getting a PhD. I have no idea how you can interpret that to mean that I despise academia ??????</p>

<p>"Maybe we can cross reference all the nebulous PhD production statistics with all the outdated binge drinking statistics and come up with yet another list of "perfect" schools for all the really academically driven future PhD's who are going to change the world and never party."</p>

<p>I would guess this is a factious comment, but I think it sounds like a pretty good idea.</p>

<p>I think, despite the contentious debate, that there is something to be said for different environments. While not everyone who attends Reed, Yale, UChicago, etcw will attain a PhD, the atmosphere is liking more academically intellectual than more professional oriented schools. Certainly an MD or JD degree are also valuable degrees as are other professional pursuits. I think it just depends on what the studnet is looking for in terms of education.</p>

<p>...Probably more facetious than factious..... :)</p>

<p>Thanks for the correction.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I NEVER said nor implied such a thing

[/quote]
</p>

<p>He might have mistakenly attributed this one to you (I know you didn't say it):</p>

<p>"the kid who doesn't have the chops to get a job so winds up hanging around for a PhD..."</p>

<p>I think the comment was intended to make the PhDs here angry, but I suspect that they find it funny. LOL</p>

<p>Anyway, sometimes people arguing on ostensibly the same "side" of an argument end up being lumped together, and their posts (or the tone of them) unfortunately get blended in the mind of readers--probably what happened here.</p>

<p>P.S. No one asked, but I'm all for drinking in graduate school.</p>

<p>I agree that people who are such slackers that they have post doctoral work would find it amusing- after all I have heard several refer to it as as "piled higher and deeper" :)</p>

<p>
[quote]
as "piled higher and deeper"

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I always thought that referred to the amount of BS involved, but it also fits for the amount of work. :)</p>

<p>BS=Bull****.
MS=More of the Same.
PhD=Piled Higher and Deeper.</p>

<p>That's the way I learned it. I don't think this was meant to confer greater or lesser (dis)respect to the PhD than to the low-level crapper at the beginning end of this great training chain.</p>

<p>While Ph.D. production may not speak to the academic quality of a school, it may speak to the academic emphasis of the school (the school atmosphere as noted above), which can be important information in its own right. I believe that was the point of the original post, simply to provide some interesting data into the mix, which it obviously did.</p>

<p>It may speak to the fact the the school is full of anti-business types who never want to work for "the man" and prefer ten years of the college life before hitting the real world.</p>

<p>That was me, except some might say I'm now "the man," oh well...</p>

<p>For students accepted to one of the schools mentioned here there is little evidence that the school has much impact on what one does. Accordingly, perhaps those that have an inkling toward the academic life choose certain schools, rather than the academy influencing them. </p>

<p>UChicago's Andrw Abbott who looked into these things has written:</p>

<p>...those who graduated from Chicago in 1975—a group considerably less privileged by ancestry than yourselves—and can tell you that their median personal income is about five times the national median, and their median household income is at about the 93rd percentile of the nation’s income distribution. That’s where you are headed. As far as the nationwide success game is concerned, there’s no reason for you to study here. The game is over. You’ve already won.</p>

<p>“Surely,” you tell me, “my studies at Chicago will determine whether I’m in the 94th or the 99th percentile of income. Getting a fine higher education may not affect my gross chances of worldly success but surely they affect my detailed ones.”</p>

<p>On the contrary. There’s no real evidence in favor of this second reason to get an education and a good deal of evidence against it. All serious studies show that while college-level factors like prestige and selectivity have some independent effect on later income, most variation in income happens within colleges—that is, between the graduates of a given college. That internal variation is produced by individual factors like talent, resources, performance, and major. But even those factors do not determine much about your future income. For example, the best nationwide figures I have seen suggest that a one-full-point increment in college GPA—from 2.8 to 3.8, for example—is worth about an additional 9 percent in income four years after college. That’s not much result for a huge amount of work.</p>

<p>The one college experience variable that does have some connection with later worldly success is major. But most of that effect comes through the connection between major and occupation. The real variable driving worldly success, the one that shapes income more than anything else, is occupation.</p>

<p>Within the narrow range of occupation and achievement that we have at the University, there is no strong relation between what you study and your occupation. Here is some data on a 10 percent random sample of Chicago alumni from the last 20 years. Take the mathematics concentrators: 20 percent software development and support, 14 percent college professors, 10 percent in banking and finance, 7 percent secondary or elementary teachers, and 7 percent in nonacademic research; the rest are scattered. All the science concentrations lead to professorships and nonacademic research. And biology and chemistry often lead to medicine. But there are many diversions from those pathways. A biology concentrator is now a writer, another is now a musician. Two mathematicians are lawyers, and a physics concentrator is a psychotherapist.</p>

<p>Take the social sciences. Economics concentrators—this is today identified as the most careerist major—are 24 percent in banking and finance, 15 percent in business consulting, 14 percent lawyers, 10 percent in business administration or sales, 7 percent in computers, and the other 30 percent scattered. Historians are often lawyers (24 percent) and secondary teachers (15 percent), but the other 60 percent are all over the map. Psychologists, surprisingly, are also about 20 percent in the various business occupations, 11 percent lawyers, and 10 percent professors; the rest are scattered. And there are the usual unusuals: the sociology major who is an actuary, the two psychologists in government administration, the political science concentrator now in computers.</p>

<p>As for the humanities, the English majors have scattered to the four winds: 11 percent to elementary and secondary teaching, 10 percent to business occupations, 9 percent to communications, 9 percent to lawyering, 5 percent to advertising. Of the philosophers, 30 percent are lawyers and 18 percent software people. Two English majors are artists and one is an architect. A philosophy major is a farmer and two are doctors.</p>

<p>With the exception of those planning to become professors in the natural sciences, there is no career that is ruled out for any undergraduate major. You are free to make whatever worldly or otherworldly occupational choice you want once you leave, and you do not sacrifice any possibilities because you majored in something that seems irrelevant to that choice. There is no national evidence that level of performance in college has more than a minor effect on later things like income. And in my alumni data, there is no correlation between GPA at Chicago and current income...</p>

<p>...The long and the short of it is that there is no instrumental reason to get an education, to study in your courses, or to pick a concentration and lose yourself in it. It won’t get you anything you won’t get anyway or get some other way. So forget everything you ever thought about all these instrumental reasons for getting an education. The reason for getting an education is that it is better to be educated than not to be.</p>

<p>The reason for getting an education here—or anywhere else—is that it is better in and of itself. Not because it gets you something. Not because it is a means to some other end. It is better because it is better. Indeed this statement implies that the phrase “aims of education” is nonsensical; education is not a thing of which aims can be predicated. It has no aim other than itself.</p>

<p><a href="http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0310/features/zen.shtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://magazine.uchicago.edu/0310/features/zen.shtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>(Which I think is what attracts kids to Chicago [and elsewhere] and results on some sticking with it for a lifetime.)</p>

<p>I LOVE the commercial about sticking it to the man--"but you are the man, sir, so you are sticking it to yourself." Smiles.</p>

<p>
[quote]
It may speak to the fact the the school is full of anti-business types who never want to work for "the man" and prefer ten years of the college life before hitting the real world.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>See, Barron. A list of per capita PhD producers is very valuable information from your perspective. It would immediately allow you to scratch the top 50 or so per capita PhD producers off your list as being too "anti-business". That would save a lot of leg-work having to determine that on a school by school investigation. </p>

<p>From your perspective, it would make more sense to jump immediately to the schools that don't dilute the quality of the business-oriented education by wasting resources teaching a bunch of academics or researchers. Just do a reverse sort on the spreadsheet.</p>

<p>I have a different perspective. All indications are that today's college students are more results-oriented, careerist in outlook, and business-focused than at any time in the last half century. Therefore, having at least a small cadre of "academics" in the student body provides a beneficial balance, even for those students focused like a laser on their post-grad business careers. Some of the interests of these geeky types (specifically in the areas of ethnic and regional studies) could actually prove valuable to business leader in the 21st century. For example, I suspect that Dell will be interested in executives who have some curiousity about the sociological, political, and cultural complexities of Bangalore, India or Beijing, China.</p>

<p>Interesteddad, the problem I have with your posts is you imply that in order to get an academic atmoshere at a school you have to have a large percentage of students become PHDs.</p>

<p>This implies that you can't get that atmosphere at a larger school, or maybe you mean it is harder to get.</p>

<p>You can get an academic atmosphere at a larger school if that is what you want. You can also get the sports nuts, the frats, the artists, musicians, business people, future doctors, nurses, etc.</p>

<p>To imply that schools like Berkeley, Michigan, Wisconsin, UCLA, etc. don't have the "academic" experience is inaccurate. There are kids that are just as nerdy and love academics as much as SWAT kids at these schools. Some students at the bigger schools actually don't like sports, or the frat scene and some aren't getting high at a moment's notice. :) </p>

<p>What you really want is a school that just has the academic kids and nothing else.</p>

<p>You don't really need the PHD stats to know what Swat is like, do you?</p>

<p>Sokkermom, my apologies. Hoedown is correct...the quote cited is one I mis-attributed to you and now can't find to whom it <em>should</em> be attributed. Also, I read your #120 in the wrong tone of voice with the wrong intent. </p>

<p>Carry on.</p>

<p>I find this thread fascinating on several levels.</p>

<p>I don't think it is about presence or absence, but about preponderance. And even those schools with the preponderance for scholarly pursuits, one might find sports, a Frat scene, and parties... It is just information to be considered.</p>

<p>"And even those schools with the preponderance for scholarly pursuits, one might find sports, a Frat scene, and parties... It is just information to be considered."</p>

<p>Idad, you're kidding.
I thought "these" students study 24/7. </p>

<p>I thought they sit in their libraries and eat in their cubicles and go to the ba....</p>

<p>OK. I better stop.</p>

<p>This isn't quite on topic, but perhaps of interest...</p>

<p>Two professors at Stanford, Katchadourian and Boli, wrote a book in the 1980s about this general topic--not PhD productivity, but how students have different goals and 'bents.'</p>

<p>They identified students as "Careerists," "Intellectuals," "Strivers" (who combine elements of intellectualism and careerism) and "Unconnected," (who tend to be indifferent to both). Their study, based on Stanford undergrads, touches on some of the things we're talking about. I suspect all campuses have students of each type. Maybe some institutions lean more one way or the other, but any student can find peers on campus with similar tendencies.</p>

<p>K & B also followed up with students in their study ten years later. </p>

<p>Of the four types, 81% went on to graduate study of some sort (at some point in the decade after college). But get this--Intellectuals were the most likely to enter the world of work immediately after graduation. It is not true, at least in this study, that the head-in-the-cloud intellectuals were afraid of or unable to get work. </p>

<p>In all groups, the most common degree earned was the JD & MBA (remember, these were Stanford grads). Intellectuals were more likely to have received a PhD, but they were just as likely as careerists to get an MBA (and more of them, as I stated before, got a JD or MBA than got a PhD). Careerists exceeded the other groups in getting JDs and MDs. In total, Intellectuals spent the least time in grad school. </p>

<p>Since they did a lot of interviews and case studies, the books are pretty good reads.</p>