A shake-up in elite admissions: U-Chicago drops SAT/ACT testing requirement

HYPSM… are national colleges with a good portion of students attending from states where more students take ACT than SAT, so there will always be a good portion of martriculating students who don’t take the SAT. That said, ~70% submit SAT at the schools you listed, which is higher than most, likely because MA, NY, and CA are high SAT participation states.

For the submitter rate you listed to occur, ~all submitters would need to submit both the SAT and the ACT – not just “many, if not most.”

My post reflected this case with the cross-admit info, and also reflected the case where the applicant is rejected and attends the “backup”.

@Data10 - I would be surprised to find that a good number of SAT takers who submitted scores to Bowdoin didn’t also take the ACT but if you have data to suggest otherwise please share it.

Ah - I see what the confusion is: When you said “Full Class” in #332 I read it as “full ADMITTED class” when you must have been referring to “full MATRICULATING class” - pardon me - that confusion was mine.

Let’s return to your post #332:

Your lower range - which matches the CDS data - is, you state, for everyone (who matriculated), not just those who “actually submitted” on their application. The CDS directions don’t say that - what they DO say is that this information is “for ALL enrolled, degree-seeking, first-time, first-year (freshman) students who submitted test scores.” Where does Bowdoin explain that those scores are for non-submitters as well? some applicants will choose not to disclose scores in any way (for instance, you are not obligated to self report on the CA or presumably other types of applications and can instruct the testing company where to send your scores bypassing Bowdoin entirely). Not even sure where Bowdoin can acquire this data on everyone.

https://www.bowdoin.edu/admissions/apply/testing-policy.shtml states, “Because standardized test results are used for academic counseling and placement as well as for the College’s ongoing research into the relationship between standardized testing and success at Bowdoin, all entering first-year students must submit scores over the summer prior to matriculating at Bowdoin.”

https://www.bowdoin.edu/ir/data/admissions.shtml states," Please note that, starting in 2016-17, Bowdoin changed its test score reporting policy from including only scores submitted for admission decisions to including all available scores for the entering Class". The numbers on this page for the 2017 full class of matriculating students, match the 2017 CDS exactly.

Bowdoin says all matriculating students “must submit scores” during the summer prior to matriculating, and Bowdoin started reporting this full average among all matriculating students in 2016.

@Data10 - Ah - got it - so scores are 100% reported prior to matriculating even if not reported prior to a decision. That’s actually helpful to know because it means scores shouldn’t necessarily disappear down the information rabbit hole when a school goes Test-Optional. UChicago doesn’t file the CDS and it looks like test optional colleges don’t always (or at all? Not sure) report their test scores to NCES so not sure what will happen w/r/t it’s reporting - but clearly w/r/t Bowdoin my earlier post that the range might actually be lower was incorrect. Thanks for laying out the correction.

“Note that the SAT section scores had a greater relative drop when including non-submitters (on application) than did ACT composite. This suggests that a good portion of the non-submitters have skewed section scores, with one SAT section relatively low and not the other.” (#332)

That’s true - I think if both section scores had been lower (ie the matriculant scored below the mean on the entire test) the upper end would have been similarly pushed down on the SAT.

I believe bowdoin has a higher yield than some other schools exactly because it is test optional. The other schools in its league that would attract the same type of accomplished gpa and ec type students but require tests.

If that is your weak point as compared to the other top applicants perhaps you strategically didn’t apply to the other direct competitors or you didn’t get in elsewhere at that level. Either way Bowdoin is your top choice. Now they can go to u Chicago as well.

It’s all good. But the u Chicago mystique of being a bastion for the “life of the mind” and only the most academically focused students will be accepted has to be toned down a bit.

Below please find an article released yesterday in the “Economist”.

It focuses on the Harvard lawsuit (and not too favorably on H) but also showcases some of the concerns mentioned in earlier threads. The lack of objective baselines can lead to the process being manipulated. This is seen clearly in the section where the author discusses holistic admissions being designed as a tool for anti semitism in the 1920s.

It’s the slippery slope of “purely” holistic (subjective as well with all data being from unique sources) admissions IMHO. Imagine if Harvard, et al, moved to test optional as well.

Test only. Not fair
Purely holistic (hard data but no common baselines) without tests. Not fair

Both methods Combined. Fair(er).

This is the best way I can summarize the issue.

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2018/06/23/a-lawsuit-reveals-how-peculiar-harvards-definition-of-merit-is

I wonder what the test optional schools would do if USNWR suddenly started penalizing test optional in the selectivity section of the rankings. I’m not saying they should do this. But how various schools responded would provide some interesting evidence of their true motivations.

Given that UChi is currently number 3, my guess is that this is not actually a rankings play.

The college applicatprocess has always been manipulated and is subjective at all times. Its completely random, and depends entirely on a random admissions officer, “liking” your child based on an essay. If thats not random, what is?
The point is, the SAT is way too easy and huge numbers of children who apply to U of Chicago have perfect scores,
so it does NOT distinguish your child. The SAT can only hurt your child in the process, if he/she does not get an 800, so why keep whining that now things are not fair?
Its never been fair. Its always been a crap shoot, but there are ways for your child to stand out, usually the SAT will not be a way! An 800 does NOT make your child stand out at U of Chicago, period!
What is so hard to understand about this?
Use a portfolio, coach the essay, be sure to send your child to Africa and hope he saves an orphan, and relax.
There are only so many seats at U of Chicago.
Find a way to hate your child’s dream school, just in case he gets rejected , and if possible, don’t ever focus on a dream school.
For certain never make U of Chicago the “dream school” as there are too few seats !

@Coloradomama I’m not sure if huge numbers of kids with perfect scores are applying to U of Chicago, but in general I think your point is correct. Standardized scores are NOT the way any particular kids is going to stand out. The SAT/ACT was never meant to rank kids in the first place. It was meant to identify who was actually college ready. That could mean different things at different schools, of course. But assuming the tests do a good job of identifying the kids who are “college ready” at any particular school, there is no reason for further testing. The school is then free to look at other factors to fill the class. That could be other achievements, a specific kind of personality, thirst for learning, desired major, etc.

Personally, I am happy for this system because it leads to the development of different kinds of schools with different characters. The kid who might thrive at Pomona, might whither at U of Chi. Holistic admissions allows for this kind of “fit” to exist.

The alternative is for tests to be designed which are difficult enough to truly “rank” all students. Then the highest scoring students would be shunted to University #1 and so on, down the list. I can’t imagine anyone really wants that.

I actually do, at least with respect to hard tests, and let me explain why.

In the US, no one is “shunted.” Ultimately, the composition of classes for universities will be shaped by student choice. A high scoring student on such hard tests may, for whatever reason, choose to attend a school with lower average stats. And vice versa (assuming that enough higher scoring students choose not to attend a school in which high scorers appear to predominate).

As well, in response to these dynamics, some schools will find that their mission is best served by ignoring or limiting the influence of test scores, relying instead on more holistic measures. That’s fine, too. So long, of course, as they don’t discriminate on the basis of race. Race discrimination is and should be proscribed in the United States, no matter the incoherent dissembling of SCOTUS and the various interest groups championing such discrimination under the guise of virtue.

Nothing is static, and one of the first principles of “real” economics - not the standard bilge that is dispensed in universities - is that people act in response to available choice, so long as there is a choice and so long as they can act. Efficiency will be maximized when the number of choosers is large, and the suppliers of choices can be flexible in response.

The elimination of truly difficult tasks - like hard tests that can rank order thousands of kids even in the top 1% of ability - takes away valuable information, both to the kids as well as to the colleges. The absence of such information must necessarily lead to a decrease in the quality of decisions, so long of course as academic ability and intelligence are attributes that are still desired by at least some colleges. As information is reduced, choice progressively shifts to the suppliers of the choices (e.g., adcoms) rather the presumed beneficiaries (i.e., students). These suppliers will substitute their own whims and preferences. I’d rather see the opposite dynamic, especially as we see that certain prestigious colleges seem to systematically favor those attributes which are likely to be highly correlated with income and wealth.

The argument against difficult tests, although it has never been a particularly strong one, is that they favor the wealthy and sophisticated. Well, it’s actually pretty easy to address this deficiency by making the tasks more g-loaded, more sensitive to innate intelligence. The privileged today resist this idea furiously, primarily because they fear that their kids would not fare well.

The truly underprivileged today, on the other hand, have nothing to lose under this approach and will likely see jumps in representation at those “top” schools (the ones that ultimately shake out as the “top dogs” from this dynamic choice-response process) akin to those enjoyed by poor Jews when Harvard and Columbia got together to design the SAT about a century ago. That’s why the status quo will not allow it.

Your summary of my attitude to the UChicago innovations, @DeepBlue86 , is not unfair except for this cavil: It’s not that EDs 1 and 2, and now the test-optional policy, “attract” students with a Chicago ethos but rather they help the AO’s to identify kids already sufficiently attracted by all they know and imagine about the school but who might otherwise be overlooked among the mass of highly qualified applicants who test high and have other good attributes but who lack the je ne sais quoi that we old Chicagoans believe charactize the ideal Chicago student. This is a problem Chicago aspirants did not have in previous eras, when they were famously self-selecting and the school was far easier to get in to. All that has come to an end with Chicago’s bewildering (to me) newfound popularity. Adjustments are required if the old wine is to find its way into the new bottles.

Certain other innovations (weakening the Core, grade inflation (relatively), a little too much “improvement” of student life), are partly responsible for the popularity surge and have, I agree, had the effect of softening Chicago’s rough edges and moving it closer in culture to the other elite schools. I can’t entirely deplore this, if only because it allows me to wax nostalgic about the Chicago of the “intellectual boot camp” era. Though, to be truthful, I did not detect much difference in spirit as between my group of old Chicago grads and a group of current Chicago students we met and schmoozed with last year. Those kids had, we all thought, a very similar conception of the meaning and purpose of a Chicago education - and saw it as different from those of the peer schools. That impressed me. I hope the AO’s have the skills and the tools to keep finding such kids.

@SatchelSF I don’t disagree with most of your post. I have nothing against harder tests if colleges wanted or needed them to help select appropriate candidates. My resistance is to the idea that colleges should be forced to accept students based on numerical ranks rather than on some combination of stats/holistic measures. Such a system would necessarily eliminate all semglage of individual character and therefor limit student choice.

There is nothing preventing elite universities from adding more difficult tests to their admissions requirements if they thought it would be helpful. I imagine that thousands of bright students would be happy to take MIT’s supplemental exam, should they design one. My guess is that they don’t offer one because they don’t see the need. While the current tests may not differentiate well at the very top, they probably do a good enough job of identifying kids with the aptitude to succeed. In other words, its a good enough threshold.

@gallentjill

This would be unworkable, given the inflation in numbers of applications driven by many kids of modest ability who can appear “tippy-top” on today’s measures (inflated GPA and easy standardized tests). If each of the schools implemented such a scheme, the mechanics would become ridiculous with kids needing to take 4, 5, 6 - who knows how many - supplemental tests in their junior and senior years!

MIT (and a few others) do have a place on their applications for standardized AMC12 and AIME scores, and certainly many applicants submit those (and no doubt a very high percentage of the accepted students score very highly - it is accepted lore in the competition world that 80% of USAMO qualifiers are admitted to MIT).

How would people react to a standard box like that for people to submit full scale IQ scores? The benefit is standardization. Even a relatively inexpensive group-administered battery of tests would capture a great deal of information about applicants. It would also be easy to subsidize the costs for low-income and underprivileged kids, and the inability to prep for such a test would remove much of the criticism of more curricular based testing today (like SAT and ACT), which is somewhat dependent on school quality.

Applicants of course need not submit the score, and schools of course would be free to weight them (or not weight them) just as they can with all the other metrics today. So, no one would be forced to do it.

Would people support such a push, recognizing that there are many poor and underprivileged students, trapped in poor environmental conditions, who will nevertheless test extremely well and therefore benefit greatly?

Well, I think we all know the answer to that, and, if we are honest, we know why.

@Coloradomama Where did you find the data that huge number of kids are applying to Chicago with perfect scores?

Even if the SAT is easier than it used to be, the scores are still broken down by percentiles. I understand that the ACT and SAT do not do a good job of distinguishing the top 1%, but the transcript should help to distinguish kids at that point. For example, I would think someone who had a 5 on the Calc BC exam and math classes beyond Calc BC on his transcript would be considered a stronger applicant to a STEM school than someone who only had math up to pre-calc listed on his transcript, even if both applicants had a 36 on the Math section of the ACT.

@SatchelSF

I was just about to post something to this effect! Since those tests exist, I’m not sure what the problem is. There are already ways to distinguish at the very top.

With regard to IQ scores, I have very little confidence that they accurately differentiate, especially at the top. They were never designed for that purpose. In fact, my understanding is that they were designed as a screening tool to help identify at risk kids so they could be offered services. I don’t believe there is any test that will truly measure pure intelligence. It is clearly possible to study for the IQ test as well. You could make a test that relies more on reasoning ability than on classroom skills. The old SAT used to work that like.

Not necessarily. Most top colleges will review in context. An applicant taking classes beyond calc BC attending a HS with an enriched math curriculum will not necessarily be advantaged over an applicant attending Podunk High that only offers non-AP calc,

Now all other things being equal (which is never the case) with 2 applicants from the same HS, then yes, the one with the more rigorous schedule may have an advantage.

@gallentjill

Perhaps that is a reasonable compromise, and one I would support. But notice how the push has been precisely in the opposite direction for decades now? That is not a coincidence.

I too would favor the old test. However, I was under the impression that the push away from the old reasoning test was from the opposite direction, from an angle favoring promotion of disadvantaged groups (see, e.g. David Coleman) rather than as a strategy protecting high SES students.

@SatchelSF tests that measure reasoning are IQ tests. I agree with the many posters that state that IQ would not predict college or general academic success but it certainly shows capacity. IQ tests might help save many kids who flounder early or are in poor schools. Problem is no one wants IQ tests to mean anything.

“Its completely random, and depends entirely on a random admissions officer, “liking” your child based on an essay. If thats not random, what is?”

Why are we back to this fallacy? It’s not one AO and not just an essay.

And this misunderstanding:
“The elimination of truly difficult tasks - like hard tests that can rank order thousands of kids even in the top 1% of ability - takes away valuable information, both to the kids as well as to the colleges. The absence of such information must necessarily lead to a decrease in the quality of decisions, so long of course as academic ability and intelligence are attributes that are still desired by at least some colleges.”

They want more than academic ability and intelligence. Thay are forming a community of scholars. Looking at more than test scores is not decreasing the quality of decisions- it is expanding the criteria beyond a score.

IF you want rack and stack, go for those colleges. Easy.

Have you never known a smart person who couldn’t “find their way out of a paper bag?” Or who was immature, fearful, not inclined to leave the safe box, lacked creativity or maybe even anti-social?

Top colleges, tooday, are not a bunch of cinder block buildings where the only task is to go to classes and study. If you don’t like the modern concept and its setting choose to go elsewhere. Don’t even bring up a UChi typ, if you so disagree with their intentions.