Alright OP, what were the 3 schools?
@GMTplus7 And you’re assuming that I have “naivete & conceit” because I spent " “considerable time” on the application"? Even after I consistently said that it’s not what my concern is about? Even when I indicated that money is not my issue? Is there something wrong with reading through what I said? I don’t care if you live overseas or in the White House, you being a taxpayer has NOTHING to do with my opinions. I’m talking about what universities SAY, not what we have to pay.
I only agree when the OP said this:
and this:
Is this related to money? NO. So quit being so snarky.
@bjkmom Uhm…scholarships included or not included?
And don’t the HYPSM schools do that?
Because for the schools you are whining about, it’s not a formula. It’s a private club, like a sorority or a golf club.
If u want a school w explicitly objective admissions criteria, then there are plenty of schools in the US and elsewhere to choose from. University of Alabama will even give automatic full tuition scholarships to int’ls with test scores that are clearly defined.
I doubt you and the OP even considered Alabama.
@GMTplus7 I have considered Alabama. I have also considered Howard, Iowa State, South Dakota State and SUNY Buffalo.
I never specifically mentioned any schools. I’m not whining either.
Then why do you think I said “Acceptance is just probability”?
Just putting it out there ONCE AGAIN, money is not my issue. If you used this as an example, then okay. But money is not what I’m concerned with.
Here’s an example, here’s what the UF’s webpage says for international admissions:
http://www.admissions.ufl.edu/prospectiveinternational.html
http://www.admissions.ufl.edu/applyinternational.html
With regards to general admission requirements, they’re really vague. They also brag about diversity and other stuff.
Contrasting to that, here’s UIUC’s webpage:
http://admissions.illinois.edu/apply/international
See? Completely different. It’s specific, it’s straight to the point. This is what I meant. I may have made a mistake by making it seem as if I generalized all universities, but I hope that now you get it. Some universities are so vague about what they want that it doesn’t make sense often.
Thank you and have a good day.
US colleges do that to US kids also. They say one thing and do something different from what they claim. This is why some parents on CC trying to buffer expectations.
@KathrynP , I’m copying a paragraph of your text so you’ll know what I’m responding to:
“C’s policies are pretty similar to the ones I described earlier: need-aware, separate application pool, and so forth. The only trick here is that it is up to the office of admissions and financial aid to determine how great your financial need is. The tremendous relief I felt while reading C’s acceptance letter was shortly followed by a heart-breaking disappointment. The financial aid package was what I can only describe as the complete opposite of generous. My expected family contribution exceeded our annual family income PLUS all of our savings! At first, I thought that there had been some sort of mistake, so I emailed the office of financial aid, asking them to reevaluate my application. After a few days, I got a response, saying that there was nothing they could do for me, and that the calculations were all correct. All I can say here is that it would have been fairer to rescind my offer of admission than to provide me with a downright laughable award. I find such treatment to be nothing but offensive.”
College tuitions are not based on your family income. Why on earth would you apply to a school, whose cost “exceeded (your) annual family income PLUS all of (your) savings”??? What were you thinking? How on earth did you expect to pay for that school???
Here’s the deal, at least for my own 3 kids: We want the world for you. But we can only afford what we can afford. So, no, my kids are NOT applying to a school where the annual cost is anywhere NEAR our annual family income. It simply is not going to happen. Sure, we want and hope for financial aid. But it shows an amazing amount of hubris to assume that a school that costs that much more than you’re able to pay will be affordable.
You don’t apply for a school, assuming that someone else will pay your way. You’ve done nothing to earn those hundreds of thousands of hard earned dollars. It’s their money, not yours. Don’t assume that anyone is going to be willing to hand over their money to you.
The basic idea is this: as much as you hope and pray that there’s money out there for you, you start off by assuming you’ll pay your own way. That’s what adults do: they pay their own way. And if someone offers them any sort of a gift, whether or not they’re able to use it, they say and mean “thank you.”
ANY financial aid package is NOT “the complete opposite of generous” or “laughable” or “offensive.” Anytime anyone is willing to GIVE you anything, it’s generous. It may not make a school that’s light years away from your budget affordable, but an offer of money you haven’t earned is still very generous.
The websites you’re using to decide which schools to apply to are the same ones people from all over the world are using and hundreds of thousands of them are getting accepted to US schools every year. Over [3/4 of a million international students](http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/2013/11/11/us-sees-record-number-of-international-college-students) studied in the US in 2012-13 (nearly 1/4 of all students who studied abroad that year) and that number is increasing every year, so it’s not like internationals are being shut out of US colleges.
Perhaps part of the trouble is what appears to me to be a single minded pursuit of a particular set of colleges (whether they be a certain tier of colleges or schools located only in one geographic area). I think all students should have a range of colleges on their list – reaches, matches, and safeties – in several categories (academic, financial, and geographic), but it doesn’t sound like that’s happening. For international students, the reality is that [over 70%](http://www.iie.org/Who-We-Are/News-and-Events/Press-Center/Press-releases/2013/2013-11-11-Open-Doors-Data) of all international students funded the majority of their educational costs from non-US sources. Competition for admission is tough; competition for financial aid from the colleges themselves is much tougher. I don’t think anyone has been unclear about that. If your country/countries won’t pay for you to attend US colleges, I don’t really understand why you assume that our colleges should pick up that cost for you. Isn’t it the job of your government to support its citizens? I understand your disappointment and frustration, but I believe it’s misplaced.
Another problem I see when young people talk about college is the desire to mold themselves into whatever their target college wants so they can be accepted. My family approached the admissions process very differently. We’re homeschoolers, and part of homeschooling is exploring and discovering what kind of person you want to be. Our children make sure their college applications accurately represent who they are and what they want, then let the chips fall where they may. Any college that doesn’t accept them is probably not the best fit anyway. Homeschoolers are represented at every kind of US college – community colleges, OOS universities, Ivies, in state flagships, and trade schools – and I think part of the reason is how we approach education. We teach holistically, so holistic admissions isn’t foreign to us. And since most of us are used to paying our own way (because even though we pay US taxes, we still have to buy our own books and other materials), it comes as no surprise that colleges expect us to contribute to our children’s education. Perhaps your countries fully fund your citizen’s educations. If so, that’s wonderful. You should take advantage of it. But if you choose to come to the US to study, you need to search for colleges that are a proper fit for your family situation and be prepared to pay for the experience just like those of us who were born here do.
I don’t think US colleges owe it to anyone to accept and pay for international students. In fact there are many US students who cannot afford to go to college or have families who struggle to help them pay for college and take out huge loans to make it happen… Additionally, US taxes help to support public higher education. If you can’t get into a US schools with the scholarship you need then look to your home country’s higher education system. Unless you do something truly outstanding, I’m not sure a gap year will change your results.
@“Erin’s Dad” It’s the University of Richmond.
But the OP posted this:
bjkmom, “Here’s the deal, at least for my own 3 kids: We want the world for you. But we can only afford what we can afford. So, no, my kids are NOT applying to a school where the annual cost is anywhere NEAR our annual family income. It simply is not going to happen. Sure, we want and hope for financial aid. But it shows an amazing amount of hubris to assume that a school that costs that much more than you’re able to pay will be affordable.”
My parents did not say that and I am quite grateful. They simply told me to apply, knowing that unless I got X in merit or need based aid it would be a hardship and I probably would not be able to attend. Our state school was a backup. I applied under those terms simply because if I did not at least apply I would definitely not go to those schools. Need based aid was factored in and it worked out. At one point one of the schools had made a mistake in our financials and said I would not get aid. My parents and I knew I probably would not be going there. Fortunately the numbers were corrected (they had made a significant misinterpretation) and it became an option again. The ivies give more aid than almost anyone. If your kids have the scores to get into top schools or schools that give merit to students of their caliber why would you not have them apply? Especially if the NPC gives you good numbers for your EFC? Note this addresses US citizens. I do have an issue with international students taking my spot. Although I agree that schools should be more upfront if it will be impossible for an international full need to attend unless their stats are above a certain point. I keep hearing about the opposite, the full pay international who is taken at the same rate and directly competes with the full pay and moderate need US student.
Rice gives half tuition scholarship to international student. I am sure some other schools do the same. If they really want you, you still have a chance to get some scholarship. BUT one should not include that in the application plan.
@DarkEclipse What is vague on the UF admission website?
Is this link not clear enough?
http://www.admissions.ufl.edu/intl/admissioninfo.html
UF is also not vague about FA for international students:
@SaphireNY, I get what you’re saying.
But the OP applied to a school whose annual cost was more than her family’s annual income, plus all their savings!! And that would be the cost for EACH of 4 years!!!
I can see applying to a school that’s likely to offer aid, and seeing where the chips fall. But to assume that you’ll get that much aid is crazy!! Then to call the school’s offer “offensive” and “laughable” is… well, better not go there.
I’m guessing the OP is smart. Great. But there are lots and lots and lots of very smart kids already in the US, and lots and lots and lots of smart international kids wanting to get into US schools. To assume that YOU deserve a free ride from a US school, and to start throwing insults around when you don’t get it, merely suggests that perhaps you’re not as smart as you thought.
@coolweather I was neither talking about documentation NOR MONEY. GET IT? I. DON’T. CARE. ABOUT. MONEY. READ IT. STOP BRINGING MONEY TO THE CONVERSATION.
Read it.
Read it.
Read it.
Read it.
Read it.
Read it.
They tell you to do your best, be yourself, do what you love, blah blah blah.
Okay? If you still don’t understand, please don’t bother replying. Read the quotes, and read the posts. That’s all I have to say.
When u watch TV commercials for toothpaste, shampoo, exercise equipment, cars, deodorant, feminine hygiene spray, etc, do you also believe that by trying that product, you will automatically get the boy/girl of your dreams?
@GMTplus7 Your point being?
The point being: colleges employ MARKETING, just like any other product vendors.
@GMTplus7 I know.
Okay, let me try this one more time. I’ll give up and leave if I can’t hit the point home.
I’m not concerned with how colleges market themselves. They can call themselves No. 1 or 20 or 2000 for all I care.
I’m not concerned with how much FA they give and how much they charge; they can charge a student 60K and offer $0 in FA. Still wouldn’t care. They offered. That’s good enough. They accepted us. That’s even better.
My point is, that they are so very vague about what they want. Let’s just consider a few colleges for a few seconds. Please bear with me.
Take UF in the US, UToronto in Canada, and UGlasgow in the UK.
UToronto and UGlasgow will specify what exactly they want. A 3.xx GPA, a xx ACT/SAT score…you get my drift.
UF on the other hand. They won’t tell you what they want. They’ll just encourage you to apply (and I stress that word. They encourage, not force) and to do your best. They won’t tell you what score you need to stand a chance, what ECs you need that might truly benefit you.
This doesn’t apply to ALL US colleges, just to a lot of them. There are plenty of outliers.
For example, take me for instance. I follow the GCE A level curriculum. UC Berkeley says on their website that “most students are predicted to achieve ‘A’ grades in their A levels”. See? Straightforward. Honest. Any A level student would know that getting any lower grade would result in low to no chance at all. On the other hand, A grade students would know that they have a SLIGHT chance of being accepted. Slight. They might get rejected, but at least they knew they stood a better chance.
My only point is that why aren’t more US colleges like this? Like UC Berekely, or Howard, or Iowa State, or SUNY Buffalo? All their admissions page give an outline of what grades their applicant pool has. Anything lower and everyone will know not to expect anything.
Other universities are like: “Submit xyz documents, pay the application fee, and you’re done!”. No idea of what is needed.
I’ll leave it at here. Thanks for reading.