A Warning to College Profs (W. Post)

<p>This is where parents with an eye can be an extreme benefit to hs kids, getting them past the esteem of simply finishing a paper. In fairness, what I see is high school emphasis on thesis statement based writing. It has its value, but it’s a formula, doesn’t require a high level of critical thinking. It at least asks them to take a stand, make a point. </p>

<p>D1 can write. And research. It’s not about her special hs ed opps (in hs she got inspired, got to argue points, but didn’t learn more significant research or writing skills.) It’s because we were on her, asking her to develop that critical thinking, helping her see that what goes in can actually be processed before getting spit out. Then, in college, they ran her through the writing wringer. The thinking skills don’t show up because of a class or two or three. They take time. And, experience with the challenges. This is one reason I don’t hold to “college gpa” being the marker of productive college years. </p>

<p>Putting a 10th grader into AP govt is ridiculous- he’d have to be exceptionally prepared. (You wouldn’t put a 15 year old, cold, into a college govt class.) This is different than the kid who has math brilliance and can take AP calc early. Or move up to physics C while in hs.</p>

<p>Much of my early career, btw, was all about doing the writing for engineers, in business, for an engineering co. And translating the thoughts of the engineers for clients. There is a real place for humanities skills.</p>

<p>BTW to be clear in high school my kids did at least two research papers a year in every history/social science course they took - not two over the four years of high school. My younger son did AP World as a sophomore - I thought it was silly at the time (it’s taught as a two year course, though the first half was not taught at AP Level.) They did not teach it as a “just the facts” course at all. In fact there was a bit of a panic in April when the teacher decided maybe he should have given them more facts. My son got a 5 on the AP - he says thanks to all the facts he knew from computer games. (Civilization 4 and the like.) He also is pretty good at not panicking when given a completely unexpected essay topic - his year the main question had to do with the Olympics. I actually was incredibly impressed with what my son got out of that class. He went down to the New York City public library to do research and actually found a primary source he could use for a paper about Gustavus Adolphus - I couldn’t figure out how the heck he was going to find something useful in English and he found a diary of a Scotsman who fought with him.</p>

<p>I think there are at least 3 posts addressing this same article on CC. The only consolation in reading the comments, is that I am not alone in my concerns. I think all HSs could do a much better job of teaching writing. I am not a product of NCLB and there was plenty of writing all through my school years, but it wasnt until college that I found my writing voice. My critical thinking skills became more fully developed then as well and I was able to incorporate them into my writing. To learn to be a better writer, you have to write, edit, revise, rewrite and REPEAT. Writing is a skill learned over time with much practice and we dont allow students the time or opportunity to do that in the k-12 years. The best half-credit class my D took in HS was a creative writing class where they were encouraged to write EVERY DAY…without much criticism. She loved this class and they had to write an entire short story for part of their final grade . And don’t get me started on hand writing which is also seen as not important any more.</p>

<p>I do feel sorry for kids that are in schools where test scores are the focus of their education. It’s just sad all the way around.</p>

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<p>It is not about what you or I believe about AP courses versus college courses in English composition. (And my position is not as you stated.)</p>

<p>Your son’s college believes that the AP courses and tests are equivalent to its own courses. That may mean that your son’s college has lower or different standards than you do with respect to that subject. You would likely have been just as disappointed if he took the English composition courses at his college but not learned to write as you hope.</p>

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<p>The AP government courses are among those less likely to be accepted for subject credit in college (and only for a semester course if they are).</p>

<p>One of our local schools failed AYP so they had to do a week or two of testing around the beginning of the school year. The district had a lot of in-migration of poorer families which may have been the cause for scores that weren’t constantly improving. The problem is that all of this testing has a cost on instruction time.</p>

<p>I’m not a fan of NCLB.</p>

<p>Ucb, but kids and parents think AP’s are hot stuff, a special level of achievement. “As if” Johnny took college AP Govt. As if he’ll be seen as smarter and more motivated because he took it. </p>

<p>Apparently NCLB is wreaking havoc in some states, because it focuses on those more likely to be left behind.</p>

<p>My kids didn’t ask for coll credit for APs. In humanities, I don’t know that a hs teacher with a structured syllabus can mimic college level. Kids who skip (oh, one course not related to their major doesn’t rile me up,) based on hs teaching are missing that college experience. Imo. Just imo. I see the value of pushing higher in math-sci. I see the value in taking tough, rigorous courses in hs. Just don’t think AP in humanities should pretend to mirror the college experience.</p>

<p>lookingforward—you hit the nail on the head–yes, AP classes should be harder and for most college bound kids they are the right choice but a lot of people take them for the wrong reason and think that their child is special because they did. It’s hard to be special when 3,000,000 other kids are doing exactly the same thing. Our D decided not to take an AP level history class last year because she hates history, fine, not a problem—until she started the class. It was way too easy and the other kids in the class were less than motivated. It was an eye opener for her that’s for sure. She refused to take anything non-AP this year.</p>

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<p>Well, they are right. APs generally mean more than typical school courses. But, as in many endeavors, there are levels to the game and there are schools that can offer more than AP or courses in-place-of AP.</p>

<p>Some teachers/schools teach to the test and some teach for understanding. How would you know unless you knew something about the subject? This can be true for college courses too. How do you know without looking at the syllabus or asking the department head?</p>

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<p>Nothing wrong with an approach to help those that are having trouble - just be sure that it actually helps and doesn’t slow down the rest.</p>

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<p>Is it not sadder than the children seem to exhibit such a great difficulty to pass the most trivial tests? Could we not expect that the level of education offered might help the students perform at a reasonable level? </p>

<p>Teaching to the test would not be necessary (and such evil) if the students received the education and training to pass the test without relying on crutches. </p>

<p>It is not hard to understand what the teaching profession HATES the NCLB and most standardized tests with such a passion. Nobody likes to be measured! And most people love to stroll around without much accountability at all. </p>

<p>If education was a part of the medical field, most of the claims by the doctors and nurses would be about blaming the thermometer for the illnesses of the patient, and never truly look at the causes. And, of course, blaming the patients and their parents! </p>

<p>Our country is the world leader … in finding excuses upon excuses for our failures!</p>

<p>The arguments I’ve seen relate to MA, what happens to gifted kids, what resources are allocated to them. Tough situation. I can’t take sides. Have some opinions about “what” is being taught to those who should not be left behind, but can’t let myself choose sides. </p>

<p>APs, if called “accelerated” or “high honors-” and actually taught at a rigorous level- could achieve the same academic end. It’s the equating it with college level or credit that bugs me. There is no standardization. (Well, in college, there isn’t always, either.) But this is hs.</p>

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<p>Even “AP lites” are often a special level of achievement chosen by smarter and more motivated students, in comparison to the regular versions of the courses that high schools offer as an alternative (or which would be the only versions of the courses in the absence of the AP versions). Sad, isn’t it?</p>

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<p>The original point of AP was to standardize courses and curricula for advanced high school students who could handle college level material as high school seniors, so that colleges would not have to individually evaluate every high school’s (e.g.) calculus course for placement into more advanced courses. But the proliferation of “AP lites” has gotten away from that. Indeed, it may be that they are now the primary motivation for many high schools to offer more rigorous versions of courses that are normally unchallenging to the better students.</p>

<p>xiggi–the problem is those tests don’t always test what they should be learning or even ARE learning at a given level. Last year our kids had to take the math portion of the grad standard test. The bulk of that test was geometry–a class kids had 2-3 years prior. They spent about 2 weeks going over the material but the kids really had to study to get caught up–most of them were doing pre-calc or calculus work by then. Doesn’t mean they were behind the 8 ball, just haven’t used geometry for such a long time. </p>

<p>Also, teaching to the test holds back the smarter kids. They are the ones that suffer. they can’t move at a pace that works for them because that one kid in their class isn’t getting it. We need to go back to a tracked system that allowed students to move at a pace that pushes them along with out totally frustrating them. That system needs to be flexible as kids mature academically as well. We also have to understand, as a society, that there are just some kids that are smarter than others and it is not a reflection on your parenting skills if you have the smartest child in the class or the slowest child in the class…this’ everyone wins’ mentality is really what killed the education system in this country…</p>

<p>If the goal were standardization, it could be different. Instead each class goes thru a vague approval process where the syllabus is sent for review. The required bullet points can be limited or vague. (Some of this can be seen online.) The oversight fails, if you ask me. Enviro got "approved " at the end of the course and turned out the teacher didn’t follow it anyway. Epic. USH didn’t make it to the end. I guess this can be true for any class. But in dark moments, I see AP as a moneymaker for CB.</p>

<p>This seems a little depressing. Yes, I know repealing NCLB is the core around which to build all conceivable solutions. </p>

<p>But… for some reason I don’t think the dumbing-down of classes is everything; technology seems to have contributed, too.</p>

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<p>I understand, but think about your statement about geometry. Isn’t that a problem in itself when kids are seemingly unable to recall or answer questions about a BASIC subject such as geometry? This goes to the heart of our education system that is based on providing little slivers of “knowledge” and move on, without true regard to the student actual ability to use that knowledge. This is also why so many students do poorly on tests such as the SAT, as their blocks of knowledge have lost all foundation. </p>

<p>Then, there is the issus of the tests. People love to blame them, but those tests, ranging from the most basic ones to the AP tests, were NOT created by a superior creature from a distant planet; they were written, developed, and implemented by … teachers and educators. </p>

<p>All in all, when looking for reasons behin the dismal state of K-12 educationin our country, the providers of service and their administrators should simply look in the mirror, and ask … “where did we go wrong?” and the answer is found in sixty years of abdication of our education to people who simply sought to do the least amount of work for the highest possible stack of benefits and in the least amount of time spent … educating as possible. </p>

<p>The tests are not the culprits; decades of lack of dedication and reliance on untrained and unqualified teachers are the reasons why we have a need for accountability in the first place. </p>

<p>But, as usual, the system will dodge a bullet, and with very few casualties, will limp towards a few more decades. And after we might perhaps realizing that since the alarm bells went off 25 years ago (A Nation at risk) we have simply compounded the problems, and not developed any workable solution, but relied on a narrative to blame the students and their parents for … not educating themselves or relying on elves.</p>

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SteveMA, this is the issue at our school - our district has eliminated ‘honors’ courses so there are only two levels of many junior and senior courses - Academic or AP - and the gulf between the two is wide. My D is not taking so many AP’s (14 total) because she is eager to skip freshman requirements at college, but because these are the best classes available to her at her HS. </p>

<p>The AP’s my kids have had vary greatly in quality, and the teacher makes a huge difference. But, even when the teacher is not great, at least there is a huge pool of resources available to augment instruction at home since the curriculum is largely standardized. D was out with mono for two months junior year while taking 5 AP’s - we found online presentations, PPT’s, video’s etc that she could watch from home that worked seamlessly with the instruction given at school that she missed out on (but she really missed the interaction with her best teachers and was very happy to return to class). </p>

<p>In districts with a lot of resources and excellent teachers, I have no doubt that many students would be better served in classes that have depth and rigor vs. the fact-heavy AP curriculum, but in ours, it is the best choice available.</p>

<p>xiggi–if you learned something 2 years ago and have not used it since–how well would you do on a test in that subject, seriously. How often does anyone use geometry after they have taken it in high school–beyond the basic stuff like knowing what a 90 degree angle is? Even college math majors do not take geometry again. I’m guessing that the only real major that would would be engineering–structural and architects. Why the focus for such an important test on a subject that 99% of the kids are NEVER going to use again. Test them on algebra, something that does get used later in life by a lot of people.</p>

<p>I had to take a class a couple years ago for work. I haven’t used it since. If I had to I could look up the information if I needed it but if I had to take a test on that now, I know I would fail. I remember the basic principals, just not the details…and those details are what show up in the test.</p>

<p>beyondtx–technically that class was an ‘honors’ class. It’s mostly made up of kids that will end up at state directional schools with little motivation to really do much else in school other than get by. She missed the discussions and the “thinking” that went on in the AP class. We also have a “regular” level for kids that won’t be going on to college and then a 4th level for special ed kids that need to work at a slower pace but still will graduate on time–in between the kids that can work in the regular classes but aren’t needing full time sped help.</p>

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<p>Geometry is useful in physics. Maybe chemistry and biology too. I imagine that it’s useful in computer science as well. I bought math puzzle books for the kids through the years so they had opportunities to do geometry problems, even after they studied it. I also presented ideas from calculus, mostly to our daughter and there were geometrical ideas there too.</p>

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<p>They make take courses related to geometry. Our son took a course in Computational Geometry in the past few years.</p>

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<p>Historically, the high-school geometry course was where students were introduced to proofs with logic and reasoning covered in English courses. This provided a base for reasoning in life. My understanding is that the proofs are mainly gone from high-school geometry courses today.</p>