I too went to a state flagship, but things have changed a lot since I attended. The current annual estimated in-state COA is over $50/ and is about $70k for 00S, and that’s at the low end of cost of state law schools. And the private lower-ranked schools are even more expensive(American University, ranked #81 by USNWR, annual COA: $82,842 per the school).
And regarding wanting to practice in a specific area of law: if you are an average graduate of an average law school, it is highly unlikely that you will be able to pick and choose, as there will be a very limited number of jobs offered. At least initially, the market will decide what type of law you will practice.
Every year, thousands of JDs are awarded to average students from average law schools(like myself), and with the debt and difficulty finding a job that pays a decent salary, it’s important to think long and hard about whether the 3 years and significant debt are worth it.
I generally agree with your comments about not working for more than 2-3 years after undergrad; by then one should have a better focus on whether one’s future includes law school or not.
And I admit that my thoughts about public flagship universities did not include the ones in NY, MA, and the others that you mentioned, but were more along the lines of the other states – FL, WY, WI – that you mentioned.
In my state, the costs for an in-state student at our flagship public law school are around $35K, not including travel and miscellaneous expenses. But I take your point about costs; certainly, a public university education – whether at the undergraduate level or at the graduate/professional level – isn’t the bargain it was when I was doing it all those years ago for both my undergraduate and law degrees.
And there are simply too many law school graduates. I see it a lot in the city where I live: there are two law schools (one public, one private) here, and the local market is just flooded with attorneys – depressing the overall wages and income for lawyers generally, unless you work for a large firm that has offices in multiple states/cities, or you can land a nice legal sinecure as a government lawyer.
Yes, flagships have gotten way more expensive because the federal loans don’t stop and universities can fund other programs off law students. American was never strong, but has a nice location and okay undergrad. It can be considered what Paul Campos called a TTTrap School.
Unless you are top half of a T13 it is highly unlikely you will have much choice of practice area. You’ll take what you can get regardless of bootleg specializations non elite schools offer. Once you are two or more years into a practice area, pivoting is very tough and entails a paycut and starting over seniority wise.
TT: ok, this is purely anecdotal, but the market is saturated. When our office posts a job(not sure it can be called “entry level” as it usually requires 3-5 years of subject-matter experience) we receive dozens of applications, often from lawyers with 10 or 20 years experience. And as noted, the application process shuts out new lawyers with the experience requirement.
Things may be way different for new top law school grads, but for the average graduate from the average law school, finding a job as a lawyer is very, very tough.
I completely agree with you. Every single market except some niche rural areas struggling to find prosecutors (parts of NM, western Nebraska) is over saturated. DC,NY, Seattle, Atlanta, all of it. Even the fields that were novel and under staffed a decade ago like IP are now fiercely competitive.
The small firm model is broken and graduates seeking jobs outside of big law or government/well funded public interest are out of luck. That small firm life is harder than ever too, even if you get in the door. Recent grads will do DUIs at minimum wage to pay 200k in loans to Cooley or Florida Coastal and potential clients will take the risk of malpractice over your twenty years of competence. It is very sad talking to attorneys in their 80s still begging for cases because they were almost always self employed and never got a pension or funded 401k. They never made good money despite their education and drive.
The market situation for lawyers may be analogous to that of doctors (or other professionals): lots of them in cities, fewer of them in more rural areas – for many reasons. If I were single with no children and only me to be concerned about, I would decamp for the wide, open and less inhabited spaces; but that is not an option available to me.
Yes, there are more lawyers in cities than rural areas. Rural residents only need attorneys for trusts and estates, the occasional DUI, and maybe a handful of commercial matters. These needs aren’t met because rural areas do not have the money for them. Unlike Medicaid/Medicare/ACA, there is no nationwide framework to fund legal needs anything approaching its demand. Medical specialists are paid a ton of money to leave cities and work in rural hospitals (unless they are a total all star, the more remote the hospital the likelier it is to pay better), attorneys will starve if they move to southern Illinois or Fargo.
I’ll state my admiration for any new law grad(or experienced attorney) from the East or West coasts who’s willing to pull up stakes and move to a totally new-in many, many ways-environment in rural America to take the bar exam, set up a practice, find a place to live.
But while I’ve seen several articles claiming a shortage of attorneys in rural America, I haven’t seen any discussing how an attorney serving those areas can actually make a living. As TT notes, there are no government legal insurance programs similar to Medicare or Medicaid. With student loan debt and living expenses, it seems a tough thing to actually make a go of it. And you’d be a genuine generalist right out of law school, with wills to land disputes to DUIs as cases, and an on-going issue about what to charge and what you get paid.
I’ve seen the articles saying NM or NE need attorneys-does anyone have any experience with what a law practice is like in these areas, especially since there’s no government support.
Serving underserved populations is laudable and ought to be encouraged(and financed, if necessary) but right now, if you set up a practice in underserved America, you are on your own.
I respect it too. Generalist attorneys used to be the backbone of small towns, providing wise leadership on myriad matters (along with clergy and the local medicine man).
You have pointed out a gap I believe exists, that between the shortage of attorneys in rural areas and how they can get paid. If a recent graduate has zero debt, they need somewhere between 20k-30k for the bare living expenses of shelter food and sundry items. Finding 60 clients, paying $500 a pop for six day’s of work devoted to their matter, is a staggering undertaking in rural America. Same with 120 clients paying $250. Average people aren’t paying for this and cannot, they’d rather take the risk of a bad attorney in their DUI case.
I do know a friend’s nephew who once called me for advice before he went to law school and right before setting up a generalist legal practice in a sparsely populated area of the southeast. He sunk five figures into setting up the office, advertising, and getting established for it all to be a failure within three years. He did everything he could but he cannot fix the economic circumstances at play. He ended up at a “mid law” firm after a ton of hustle and retooling.
I am not sure why there is constant bashing of the legal profession on this thread. I have been a lawyer in multiple jurisdictions for multiple decades, and I still love it. For me, being a lawyer has taught me (and still does today) how to fix problems, not cause them. That has helped me greatly in all aspects of my life.
I am in “big law” too. Yes, there are ups and downs, but what profession doesn’t have them?
I was intrigued about the doom and gloom paintings about the legal profession in this thread, so I did a search right now on the words “legal career prospects”. Glassdoor, citing the Bureau of Labor Statistics, finds an “optimistic” job growth perspective and further notes the many career options for lawyers. I find that an interesting contrast.
Any student considering law school should take this thread, including my post, with multiple grains of salt. Do your own research, and talk to your friends and family that are in the law. Becoming a lawyer was one of the best things that happened to me, and it continues to be.
Perhaps it’s not for all; but, then again, what is?
If anything, the posts by attorneys here have deployed a soft touch. Most online forums for big law and generalist attorneys are way, way, way more critical of the profession.
What is an “optimistic” outlook? Can the profession grow so that 75% of JD graduates can find an entry level job, instead of between 50-60%? Will the profession grow apace with population and economic growth in general? Will the associate training return to rotational programs or continue to overly specialize from day one due to economic constraints? And what are these career options for lawyers that don’t entail actual practice? Why go to law school for a position you can get with a BA or a one year masters? “I’m just asking questions, Leon.”
Almost no one regrets doing a two year investment banking analyst stint. Almost no one regrets joining the foreign service for three years. Almost no one regrets taking an auction house apprenticeship, the ones places like Christie’s offers. People take these roles, learn a ton, may realize it is not for them, and walk away with tangible experience and money. Law school is three years that closes a ton of doors. Career satisfaction and regrets of lawyers outstrip dentists. Dentists also have more boats for weekend excursions.
Leaving my partnership and becoming an entrepreneur was the best decision I ever made. I could not afford my current lifestyle or have as much leisure time if I stayed in law. My biggest regret is going to law school. My second biggest is becoming a big law partner.
I have no “biglaw” personal experience(although higher-achieving classmates do), but don’t see informing potential law school applicants to do their research as “bashing” the profession. As gandalf and I have noted, many things have changed over the years for non-biglaw attorneys. It’s now expensive to attend your state school, and it can be tough to find a job.
That’s not “doom and gloom”; that’s reality. Any prospective law school applicant ought to look at the employment statistics for each school considered-the ABA requires them.
The ABA is a horrible organization that has degraded the profession, in a respectability ranking it is between snake oil salesmen and tarot card readers. I exaggerate, but the public is pretty fed up with its shenanigans and sleaze. Those ABA reports are more honest now after decades of outright fraud, yet they are still inflating employment numbers A LOT. Law schools pull a ton of stunts to pump the numbers and have been given room to lie by the court system, especially in the Cooley and Thomas Jefferson cases. The notion of a medical school doing this stretches the imagination.
And it’s not just the law. How many starry eyed HS kids claim they are premed because “I love babies and want to help them as a pediatrician”. What is unstated, is that they also want what they think is the risk-free lifestyle and compensation of doctors they know (who might be in their 60’s now) whose practices were formed under VERY different circumstances.
How many kids want to be the next “fill in the blank” tech entrepreneur who dropped out of college and sold their company for billions? How many kids love basketball but topped out at 5’5" so they’re going to become a star sports agent instead?
I don’t think we bash on CC. But a little reality can’t hurt.
I have family overseas… in countries where being both a doctor and a lawyer are respectable professions. They are essentially civil servants (actual government employees for the doctors, and “might as well be” for the lawyers). Nobody gets rich in these countries as either doctors or lawyers, but it’s about as risk free a profession as you can get. (unlike the diplomatic corps, for example- more prestige there, but subject to a change in political leadership, lots of relocation, etc.) The fact that these two professions are moving towards a model in the US which already exists elsewhere shouldn’t shock people. Become a HS chemistry teacher, a lawyer, a pediatrician… based on your talents and interests- but the general comp range, pension, benefits, etc. are all within spitting distance of each other.
REAL money comes from owning hard assets in these places…not from the professions.
Yep. You want big bucks in this country then don’t enter a profession. I type this out, from my house in Palm Beach this Christmas season, which I could not afford as a big law partner. I will be skiing out West after New Years, taking time off that I couldn’t dream of as an attorney. I knew “hard assets” and equity were what mattered from a young age. I just didn’t realize how inefficient the billable hour was for wealth formation and growth.
Medicine is not as lucrative as it was in the 70s on a relative basis (comparing it to finance and corporate management then) due to insurance companies tightening the belt. Once you are licensed you are pretty much fine. The debt is way more than law but you can probably pay it off eventually. MDs don’t write about moving to Turkey to teach English and escape American student debt collectors.
Yes, sports agency work and being a tech unicorn are unrealistic. People are less likely
To go into debt or entirely waste their youth pursuing either, however, and the public has a better understanding of the odds of both.
Medicine is moving towards foreign models hospital by hospital in a slow informal process. Law is moving away from it, to my understanding. Most countries treat law as a low paid but stable guild. Here it is everyone eats what they kill, it may be decent money or you may lose your shirt for life. “It’s all on you and we will throw as many obstacles in your way as possible” is the ABA motto
For the most part, I agree with you although I do understand that law schools produce more lawyers (about 35,000 per year) than are needed so I also understand other posters’ point of view.
I would like to share a bit more, but have some errands to run.
In short, the law profession is not as bleak as portrayed in this thread,but the loss of income accompanied by student loan debt can be crippling to many and devastating to some.
Different strokes for different folks. And no, it isn’t all about making money. It’s about doing what you love. The central rule for success in whatever you’re doing is to love what you’re doing and work hard. The rest will take care itself. Of course, there’s also luck and timing and life that intervene. But I am convinced that, regardless of what you do, loving it and working hard at it is critical. That’s exactly how I’ve gotten to where I am. And while I’m not in a house in Palm Beach, I ain’t doing too bad either.
And yes, two of the best things I ever did were (a) go to law school and (b) work in the law for multiple decades. Like I said, different strokes…
I am aware of several young attorneys with at least one year of post law school work experience who have recently switched from one employer of attorneys to another. All received many job offers ranging from the mid-$100s to over $300,000.
The key is getting at least one year of post law school work experience.