I’m not sure how this post became so heated, but it’s time to cool down. Please read Forum Rules, linked at the bottom of this page. CC is not a debating society.
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For any law students about to enter their summer associate gig in six months or graduating soon, enter corporate transactions if these three are the available options. Cap markets v tax is a toss up depending on personality, cap markets being a better fit for most.
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Personally - I don’t mind the tone of this thread at all. As Publisher noted, it includes sharing strongly held perspectives (often based on personal experience).
These positions are strongly held because people care.
They care about preventing young peeople from going into a profession with structural problems and risks of expensive failure or (conversely) they want to share the upsides of a career that might be exceptionally gratifying for the right person.
I see all the posts weaving together, highlighting different aspects of complicated, multi-layered issue. I think we all respect these differing views. 
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Yeah, there’s been some heated discussion of law prospects elsewhere, with some of the same names, but this one has been pretty mild, overall.
But sorry if I started anything!
You didn’t start anything.
Hopefully some 22 year olds’ lives will have been saved by what they read from me and OldLaw. Debt and law school shatter people.
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Well… I hope all the posters might consider stopping in on these threads once in a while.
Despite all that’s been said, my college soph daughter is still interested in law school! Although, thanks to some feedback on other threads re: future careers in tech (and the resultant family discussions) she has an interview for a (paid) tech-related internship! My goal recently has been to help her think about exploring other options/fields that could be rewarding, interesting, and challenging.
For that perspective, I can thank the numerous threads on various aspects of future careers (many that contained heated discussions!)!
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To state the obvious:
One’s LSAT score is very important. It is a learnable test. No penalty–except at Yale Law School–for retaking the LSAT as many times as needed in order to get an affordable offer of admission to a top 13 law school or a substantial to full tuition scholarship to a lower ranked law school.
It is important for prospective law students to approach law school with their eyes wide open regarding the true cost-of-attendance (almost 3 years of loss of income in addition to tuition, fees, books, room & board) and an accurate understanding of the job market.
Law is a crowded field. There is an over supply of lawyers.
Nevertheless, lots of opportunities for law grads with qualifications in securities /capital markets or in tax law. Otherwise, it is important to try to attend a top 13 ranked law school at a discount or a top 4 law school if full pay.
For those interested in careers in criminal law, it would be wise to attend law school on a full tuition scholarship.
Whether or not an MBA is a better choice than law school really depends upon the individual, but the answer probably is that pursuing an MBA after a few years of post-undergraduate degree work experience is the wiser course to take.
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Crediting Publisher for giving actionable and accurate advice. I did not know that about Yale.
The LSAT is very learnable, I’d argue more so than the SAT from what I have read and observed. Someone with a 150 won’t get to 170 necessarily, but they can get a score that will lead to a full ride at the local law school. Outside the T13 you don’t have many schools giving a strong chance of big law. Outside the T50 the rankings don’t matter at all. Go to the best local school you can at that point for free. Geography reigns.
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Caveat Emptor:
Yes, Merit awards are great. But do NOT assume that your first year scholarship is going to carry you through all three years. If you have traded down to “take the money”, you may find yourself with 1/3 of a law degree (i.e. not a lawyer) and facing the reality that without loans you cannot continue.
I know kids who were very proud of themselves for taking the “prudent” path. And they ended up in debt anyway- so they’d have been better off with a JD from GW or BU or Fordham (fine law schools even though not T-14) than the “down a tier” school whose merit only lasted one year.
Great article. Thank you for sharing.
The author of the article may be a novice regarding law school scholarships as the article fails to mention “scholarship stacking of sections” and “no stipulation scholarships”.
Additionally, the author fails to note “clawback provisions” in some scholarships.
The better the school the less likely there are scholarship stipulations. I’d be extremely hesitant about GW/Fordham/BU. All have inflated big law numbers due to a stronger hiring market than usual. If an 08 occurs again, their share of the big law market will crater before anyone else, their alumni are the marginal hires. I would take an American/Brooklyn law/Suffolk Law degree at full ride over those three schools at even half tuition.
As another post mentioned, section stacking is real and obliterates many scholarships.
For anyone here who does not understand the lingo. Merit scholarship law schools extend can come with stipulations. If one falls below a certain gpa or class rank, a student loses the scholarship. I have not heard of clawbacks myself, but trust that they exist because law schools are cheap to operate and fund other university functions with student tuition dollars.
Every entering law school class is divided into “sections” of 40-120 students. They take all of the first year doctrinal courses together without overlapping with other sections. Your curved grades are relative to those in your section, and your class rank is against all students in all sections. “Section stacking” is when a law school places all its merit scholarship recipients into one section with stipulations. If the stipulation is “stay in the top third of the class” then 2/3 of the scholarship recipients will be paying full fare come 2L. The scholarship offer ensures seats are filled, often with higher LSATs than normal for the school. It is incredibly common, dishonest, and fully approved by the ABA with zero crackdown. The ABA and Department of Education do not protect students, and greenlight fraud and give 200k+ in loans for Mickey Mouse Meme Degrees.
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At least one very low ranked law school placed a clawback provision in its scholarship awards.
The claw back provision stated that if a scholarship recipient transferred to another law school then that student would be required to repay any scholarship funds received.
Law schools are divided into 4 tiers of 50 schools each when referring to the US News rankings of the almost 200 ABA (American Bar Association) law schools.
Many who attend tier two, tier three, or tier four law schools attempt to transfer to tier one law schools if they finish the first year of law school ranked among the top 5% to top 20% (maybe top 25%) of their first year law school class.
While a score of 159 to 162 on the LSAT is unlikely to generate a scholarship offer to a Tier One (top 50 ranked) law school, it is sufficient to generate multiple scholarship offers from Tier Two, Tier Three, & Tier Four law schools.
After one enters his or her first year of law school, LSAT scores are no longer meaningful as the purpose of an LSAT score is to predict how one will do during one’s first year in law school. Class rank becomes the most important factor in a law student’s profile after entering law school. Many elite law firms will only grant interviews to students who finish their first year of law school ranked among a top percentage of their class. (Although among top 13 ranked law schools, this “top” percentage requirement for granting on-campus interviews is often forbidden by the law school under the rationale that all law students at a top 13 law school are highly capable prospective attorneys.)
Which law school was this? Another technique to prevent transfers is to force faculty to write awful letters of recommendation and to make the curve a C+ or B- so that even a top student has a relatively low GPA. Thing is, transferring up almost always makes sense. Even if you get big law from Brooklyn or Fordham or Cooley, that label sticks with you and nyu and Columbia are better for client interaction. You owe nothing to your law school and shouldn’t feel guilty about leaving.
The four tiers help for a general sense of quality. Tier two “can” make sense. Tiers three and four almost never barring highly unusual circumstances and a full tuition scholarship. At that point a lot of your classmates shouldn’t have gone to college, let alone law school. Some of the worst offenders don’t require a BA, an associates is fine.
The richest attorneys went to and will continue to go to awful law schools. Someone who goes to Yale Law or some T50 like Miami comes from a social milieu that frowns upon toxic tort and medmal, where the big bucks are. It is really anathema and considered a disgrace to she hospitals and lawyers for nine figures like John Edwards.
If I recall correctly, Appalachian School of Law received the most (negative) publicity for this practice. additionally, this very low ranked law school and a couple of others used delay tactics to thwart the transfer loss of their students.
For years people expected Appalachian to shut down due to a lack of enrollment or the ABA getting involved. Of course, the latter almost never happened because one of its creeds is “a chicken and a JD degree in every pot, and a law school for every street corner bodega. Accredit away”
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Could you provide a citation to this claim? I would be very intrigued as to which law schools have been found to do this.
Not sure if this got lost in the conversation, but merit awards at law schools in the top 50ish (though I’m not sure where the limit might be), are generally not “conditional” on a certain level of performance in law school, so will not be lost if a student is not at the top of the curve. ABA reports show which law schools give what are called “conditional” scholarships or not, so students should be forewarned to investigate that for specific schools they are considering.
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Crediting this. I have not heard of a tier one law school offering merit scholarships with stipulations.
You will not find successful lawsuits against law schools that results in thorough discovery, large payouts, or significant internal reform. In the Cooley lawsuit, the flagship case against law school shenanigans, the judge effectively gave a license to lie. If you go on Top Law School Forum, Scott Bullock’s website, Reddit School of Law, or the old JDUnderground archives, testimonials attesting to this include the following schools:
Brooklyn
NY Law School
New England Law
Suffolk Law
Cooley (multiple campuses)
The Infilaw network (one of the most ingenious schemes, I wish I had a PE fund that took federal loan dollars at near unlimited amounts and offer bogus diplomas, all legally)
Western Law
Loyola Los Angeles
SF
McGeorge
Any law school in Chicago not named UChicago or Northwestern