ABD PhDs

Graduate School
1

<p>One thing has been confusing me. </p>

<p>I had the idea that applicants to graduate school tend to be pretty serious... but I have had some TAs who didn't seem to be committed or really even knowledgeable about the science (I think I could have taught the discussion section better).</p>

<p>I've also met a graduate student who dropped out of her PhD program. And now I keep reading about ABD PhDs. How prevalent are these "perpetual" ABD's? How does funding work in these cases? Do they need to return the money somehow....?</p>

<p>A related topic, I read about grad students who apply to medical school BEFORE they even finish their PhD, while they're still in graduate school.</p>

<p>How is this possible?</p>

2

<p>
[quote]
A related topic, I read about grad students who apply to medical school BEFORE they even finish their PhD, while they're still in graduate school.</p>

<p>How is this possible?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>How is it not possible? </p>

<p>However, it's very rare for a med school to take a student who's in the middle of a degree program. If you're doing a PhD, they'd strongly prefer that you finish it (or are 1 year away from finishing) before applying to med school.</p>

3

<p>What was the statistic? 50% of PhD students don't finish their PhDs?</p>

4

<p>do most of these phd's--> md's continue to do research or just clinical? If it's just clinical, doesn't that represent a lot of wasted research funding?</p>

5

<p>Not everybody wants to finish his or her dissertation. The first twoish years of grad school (the "A" in "ABD") are not terribly different from undergrad -- you take classes, you rotate through labs on a part-time basis, and people who were great undergrad students but poor grad students can survive. After finishing the qualifying exam, you have to start doing real graduate student work, which is mostly independent, unstructured, and not dependent on your book smarts. Some people can't handle that transition, and don't complete their PhDs.</p>

<p>Graduate school in the sciences is not a good place for people who just like being in school. It's a good place for people who just like being in the lab.</p>

<p>As for funding, some schools will stop funding you after a certain number of years, and so it's up to your PI to determine whether he'd like to continue devoting thousands of dollars to your presence every year.</p>

6

<p>ABD- All But Dissertation. It's the THING that gets you the PhD. Some of the students probably didn't see this coming- that grad school is actually about the dissertation. And they drop out. I've heard stories from my profs about their cohorts who dropped out for various reasons whether it's personal or realization that it's not really worth spending the next few years being independent and doing own work. My dad was just one of those people- he finished his coursework and saw the dissertation coming and said, "forget it, there's got to be something better to do." He did- went to the Wall Street.</p>

<p>When you get to be a ABD, you get that point where you just would rather get your dissertation done ASAP than to teach a discussion section. They realize that thier time is money and valuable and being in the classroom and prepping for the sections are just taking it away their time that they could've spent on their research. So that's the case of your TAs being... lazy. They're not dumb, they're just lazy and unmotivated (and self-centered).</p>

<p>So for some, being a ABD can be the best part of graduate school because they're finally getting to do what they came for (their research/dissertation). For others, it's the worst because of the sheer independence and loneliness that come with it. And this generation is a pretty social bunch!</p>

7

<p>Two things
1)In the biomedical sciences, the attrition rate is 75%. Still abysmal, but not 50%.
2)I have known multiple PhD students who after (they call them comps at my school) leave with a masters and enter medical school right away. It's not that they have finished the degree, it is that they are leaving with the masters because through the course of their rotations, prelims and comps, realize that they want more specialized training in clinical aspects.</p>

8

<p>so how long does it typically take for a grad student to finish a dissertation? </p>

<p>If the first two years are rotations (but I'm sure someone could choose to skip these rotations and go full-time in one lab), how long do the students who do go on after the ABD period take to graduate?</p>

<p>and also, of the students who you mentioned that go to med school after the ABD, do they have to return the money somehow, or is it basically a free Masters for them?</p>

9

<p>In my program, rotations are done during the first year, and you pick a lab and finish your qualifying exam during second year. The dissertation research is done during second through ~fifth years, and the dissertation is written and defended at (on average) 5.5 years. Six years is pretty normal, but seven or eight starts to get your dissertation advisory committee very worried.</p>

<p>Even if you drop out of a PhD program, you do not have to return the tuition and stipend which was paid on your behalf.</p>

10

<p>And you've neglected to list one of the most common causes for permanent ABD status: Ph.D. major advisor changes universities shortly before the defense and none of the minor advisors are willing to take a serious interest in the candidate.</p>

<p>Pick your committee with great care.</p>

11

<p>
[quote]
Graduate school in the sciences is not a good place for people who just like being in school. It's a good place for people who just like being in the lab.</p>

<p>As for funding, some schools will stop funding you after a certain number of years, and so it's up to your PI to determine whether he'd like to continue devoting thousands of dollars to your presence every year.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>It is also true that many (probably most) disciplines don't really require a lab, and hence don't really require (much) funding in order to complete the PhD. The humanities, most social sciences, and mathematics are disciplines in which you often times don't really need a lot of expensive gear in order to do your research. You may need access to data, but that data is often times publicly available. For example, I know a guy who is studying the economics of health care, and is using data sets that are publicly published (and hence available for free) by various government agencies. Hence, his only real 'expense' is a decent computer to crunch his data, but computer hardware gets cheaper and cheaper all the time, and plenty of data analysis software packages are available as open-source freeware. </p>

<p>You can sometimes even obtain a PhD in some of the sciences without access to an expensive lab. For example, you can probably complete a PhD in computer science using a home lab filled with cheap hardware and free software. I suspect you can also probably complete a PhD in theoretical physics or theoretical chemistry by just coming up with some new theory, and 'proving' the theory by showing that it explains the experimental results that others have published. Hence, all you would really need is library access to the scientific literature of your field. For example, I know that alumni of MIT can get (onsite) access to the entire MIT library system - including all of MIT's electronic journal subscriptions - for only $150 a year, and even non-alumni can get this for $500 a year. Hence, even if you include huge costs to print out the journal articles that you need, it's hard for me to see how it would cost more than a few thousand bucks a year. </p>

<p>The upshot is that, in those fields, you really can pursue your PhD on a 'part-time' basis and hence take years or even decades on an ABD basis before finally finishing. For example, that health care guy I discussed above could probably just get a regular job and then work on his research on the weekends. He doesn't even need to be local. He would just need to have periodic discussions with his advisors, but he could probably do that through instant messenger. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And you've neglected to list one of the most common causes for permanent ABD status: Ph.D. major advisor changes universities shortly before the defense

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Or sometimes your advisor doesn't get tenure and is hence is forced to leave the university (or sometimes decides to leave academia entirely). </p>

<p>Or, far more tragically, sometimes your advisor will actually die. I know one guy that that happened to. Or, perhaps something unexpected and sad will happen in your advisor's personal life. For example, without giving too much away, I know one professor whose close family member was diagnosed with a serious illness, and so that professor now needs to devote most of his time caring for that family member. That also means that he will have little time for his students. </p>

<p>That's part of the problem with the PhD lifestyle. No matter how carefully you pick your committee, unlucky things can happen. </p>

<p>
[quote]
ABD- All But Dissertation. It's the THING that gets you the PhD. Some of the students probably didn't see this coming- that grad school is actually about the dissertation. And they drop out. I've heard stories from my profs about their cohorts who dropped out for various reasons whether it's personal or realization that it's not really worth spending the next few years being independent and doing own work. My dad was just one of those people- he finished his coursework and saw the dissertation coming and said, "forget it, there's got to be something better to do." He did- went to the Wall Street.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Or, the students may decide that instead of publishing their research project in the form of a dissertation, they would rather attempt to commercialize their project. For example, recently, 2 Stanford PhD students sensed that there was commercial potential in the research project they were working on, so rather than work on the project within the strictures of academia, they decided to start a company around the project. </p>

<p>They named their company: "Google". </p>

<p>Those guys (Sergey Brin and Larry Page) never finished their PhD's, but somehow, I don't think they care about that anymore. </p>

<p>
[quote]
So that's the case of your TAs being... lazy. They're not dumb, they're just lazy and unmotivated (and self-centered).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, I don't know that I would say that they're lazy and unmotivated (although they are possibly self-centered). I would actually argue it's a case of being rational. Let's face it. Many grad students serve as TA's just because it's a requirement of their funding. They don't really want to do it, and they don't really gain very much by doing it well. It's not like they get extra funding by being great TA's. Nor do high TA ratings really gain you much when you're on the job market. Sure, it may help you marginally, but at the end of the day, if your TA ratings are stellar but your research is mediocre, you're not going to get a good academic placement. </p>

<p>Hence, it is (unfortunately) entirely rational for them to spend as little time as possible on their TA work. Why should they spend time on tasks that don't really gain them much? They would rather spend their time on tasks that do have high gains (like their research).</p>

12

<p>sakky, you forgot to mention one thing in your first point: Funding. If the ABD student runs out of funding before the diss is completed, s/he may be forced to look for a regular job and have to work on the diss on weekends or in their free time in order to survive. Can't be too much fun to do that for free.</p>

<p>That goes in the logic of the TA being apathetic to his/her job- time is money and that time could've been spent doing research instead of grading papers.</p>

13

<p>
[quote]
The upshot is that, in those fields, you really can pursue your PhD on a 'part-time' basis and hence take years or even decades on an ABD basis before finally finishing. For example, that health care guy I discussed above could probably just get a regular job and then work on his research on the weekends. He doesn't even need to be local. He would just need to have periodic discussions with his advisors, but he could probably do that through instant messenger.

[/quote]

Dependent, of course, on funding sources. In my program, we're not allowed to have sources of income outside our stipends, which I believe is a consequence of the NIH being our funding source.</p>

14

<p>
[quote]
sakky, you forgot to mention one thing in your first point: Funding. If the ABD student runs out of funding before the diss is completed, s/he may be forced to look for a regular job and have to work on the diss on weekends or in their free time in order to survive.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Uh, actually, I think I did mention that when I stated that in my 3rd paragraph when I said that somebody could pursue a PhD in certain fields on a part-time basis while holding a regular job. For example, to repeat, that health care economics guy I mentioned has been sorely tempted to do precisely that, basically because he has to support a wife (who doesn't work) and 2 kids, which obviously isn't that easy to do on just a stipend. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Can't be too much fun to do that for free.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Well, living in PhD student poverty ain't that much fun either, especially if, like some people, you're actually trying to support a family. The tradeoff seems to be a matter of graduating faster and actually having some money during the interim. If you have pressing financial needs, I would argue that the latter is looking pretty good. </p>

<p>Furthermore, a lot of people find a job opportunity that they like before they finish: Brin & Page of Google being the most famous example. Those guys are ABD. If Google hadn't worked out, oh well, they surely would have just gone back to Stanford and finished. Heck, they were actually in a no-lose situation, for their dissertation project was their company, so even if the company had failed, they still would have advanced the project and hence would be that much closer to graduation. The only thing they "lost" was their stipends, but that was hardly much of a loss at all as they were able to secure over a million dollars in funding in just the first few months of business. </p>

<p>To give you another example, take Bill Cosby. Many people don't realize that he's actually a serious scholar regarding the education of children, having completed a Doctorate in Education from UMass through part-time work. In fact, his dissertation was about the educational benefits of the show Fat Albert, the Emmy-nominated children's educational cartoon that Cosby himself had founded, produced, and provided the voices for several characters, including Fat Albert himself. Heck, during that time, not only was he working on Fat Albert, he also starred in several movies and released comedy albums, all while completing his doctorate part-time. I think that's pretty darn impressive. </p>

<p>I can also think of several people who were working on finance/accounting PhD's who took consulting projects in investment banking or hedge funds for a semester. The school didn't fund them for that semester, but they hardly cared, for they could make money in just 1 month to equal an entire year of funding. What made the situation so convenient was that their projects also part of their dissertations. For example, one guy not only made a ridiculous amount of money on a project, but also came back with a paper that became one essay of the standard three-essay dissertation. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Dependent, of course, on funding sources. In my program, we're not allowed to have sources of income outside our stipends, which I believe is a consequence of the NIH being our funding source.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Actually, I'm not quite sure that's true, but I admit that I don't know the details. I suspect that what's really happening is that if you agree to take funding through NIH, you're not allowed to have other income sources, but you could choose to simply forgo your funding. For example, if you were offered a high-paying part-time job (as I know some Phd students get), you could just choose to take that rather than take your school's funding, at least, during the semesters when you're working on that job. </p>

<p>But I admit, I don't really know the details, so it may be true that a NIH project doesn't even give you the option of not taking the funding. That, however, opens the other (extreme) possibility of simply not working on NIH projects. Now, obviously, that will restrict who you would get to work for, and might even restrict which school you could go to, but it is an option. </p>

<p>For example, I seem to recall that Pfizer used to have a program to assist some of their chosen employees to get PhD's by partnering with various universities and working on Pfizer research projects that were (presumably) funded purely through Pfizer R&D and hence not funded by the NIH. I believe the deal was that while you would be given full salary and benefits as befits a Pfizer employee, the results of your dissertation would become Pfizer intellectual property, and they also get to dictate which project you work on. But if you like the project they give you, then I think it's a pretty sweet deal, as you'll be enjoying a far more lucrative lifestyle than the average grad student. I think Merck also used to offer a similar deal.</p>

<p>However, I don't know if those companies are still offering that. Nevertheless, the point is, there are ways to get a PhD in the health sciences without the restrictions of government funding.</p>