ABET to accredit professional MS degrees

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Stanford recently introduced a non-ABET BS program in "energy resources engineering", but this appears to be a very small and unconventional "niche" program. It wouldn't fit under the ABET accreditation requirements for petroleum, civil, or any other traditional discipline.

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<p>But that's precisely my point. Sure, it doesn't fit ABET accreditation requirements, but I doubt that most employers or most students really care. After all, like you alluded to, this isn't some scrub school we're talking about here. This is Stanford we're talking about. Somehow I doubt that there are many oil companies that would not consider hiring a Stanford Earth Resources Engineering grad just because he isn't accredited</p>

<p>In fact, this whole point actually ties into something that we had discussed in another thread. Most graduate engineering degrees are currently unaccredited, and hence those people who obtain such graduate degrees but came from non-engineering undergrad programs will never be formally "accredited". But that doesn't seem to deter anybody. For example, I can immediately come up with a quite large list of people who earned graduate degrees in engineering from MIT, but are still not "accredited" because their undergrad degrees were in a science or mathematics. For example, I know one guy who is completing his PhD in engineering at MIT and has been presented with a surfeit of job offers from many of the top engineering firms in the world, despite the fact that he doesn't have an "accredited" degree. {His undergrad degree was in physics.} </p>

<p>So, again I ask, with the exception of civil engineering, how many employers or students honestly really care about accreditation? I would argue that they care far more about the overall reputation of the school. I'll pose two questions to the peanut gallery. Suppose that the states were to accredit bioengineers in the future. How many people would turn down MIT, Stanford, or Berkeley for, say, Oregon State just because the latter is accredited in bioE? </p>

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But even if they weren't, that's not the point. The point is that Stanford and Berkeley engineering administrators care about ABET accreditation, even if most of their students don't. The EE departments at both schools have maintained ABET accreditation since 1936, so it apparently matters to somebody.

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<p>Well, what I meant is whether it would matter to somebody who is actually important. Now, that may be harsh, but the fact is, administrators, frankly, aren't that important in terms of actually dictating who gets hired and why. </p>

<p>Look the truth of the matter is that what most engineering students really care about is getting a good job. Hence, the employers have real power - far more power than do the administrators. And as long as most engineering employers don't care about accreditation, neither will most students. Administrators can do whatever they want, but if employers don't care, then it doesn't really matter. </p>

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And this is an (unsolicited) example of the kind of engineering student who will be affected -- in a positive way.

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<p>Well, I suppose that could be construed as a change. </p>

<p>But what I was thinking about is whether many students really would be convinced to attend a school that they normally would not choose just because it offers one of these new accreditations. For example, suppose that MIT or Stanford choose not to offer master's level accreditation, but some no-name school does. How many people would turn down MIT or Stanford for that no-name school? How many employers would stop hiring from MIT or Stanford in favor of that no-name school? Again, with the exception of civil engineers, I think the number would be quite small.</p>

<p>University administrators set curricula, so if university administrators care about ABET requirements, I don't understand why employers' hiring practices are going to somehow influence the very insular academic world and change university officials' minds about what degree programs should include and what they shouldn't...</p>

<p>Y'know what? Let's just wait and see what happens. I'm tired of trying to predict the future. I think this'll have good effects on all of engineering, and I think it's the beginnings of a change in society's view on the profession of engineering, but none of us is 100% certain about anything that hasn't happened yet.</p>

<p>Further attempts to refute my observations will be met with silence, not because I will agree with the future refutations, but mainly because I think I have a stress fracture in my foot, and I also have a meeting at three, and lots of work to do.</p>

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I'll pose two questions to the peanut gallery. Suppose that the states were to accredit bioengineers in the future. How many people would turn down MIT, Stanford, or Berkeley for, say, Oregon State just because the latter is accredited in bioE?

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Hmm, that only seems like one question. But I think that the question is moot, because in the (unlikely) event that states began licensing bioengineers in the future, then MIT, Stanford and Berkeley would pursue ABET accreditation in that field.</p>

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Somehow I doubt that there are many oil companies that would not consider hiring a Stanford Earth Resources Engineering grad just because he isn't accredited

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Actually, I think that a degree in "energy resources engineering", even from Stanford, would provoke questions from a potential oil company employer. Nobody would know what the heck it was. A potential employer would probably want to know: is this different from a "regular" Petroleum Engineering degree? And "regular" ultimately means "ABET". </p>

<p>In this case, the lack of an ABET degree wouldn't necessarily disqualify the applicant -- especially right now, when the supply of "regular" PetEs is tight. But the employer's comfort level with this unusually named degree would probably be higher if it also happened to be ABET-accredited in Petroleum Engineering.</p>

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But what I was thinking about is whether many students really would be convinced to attend a school that they normally would not choose just because it offers one of these new accreditations.

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Probably not. Although it may seem counterintuitive, the bigger impact of master's-level accreditation is likely to be at the bachelor's level.
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So, again I ask, with the exception of civil engineering, how many employers or students honestly really care about accreditation?

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Here's a real-world situation that could arise today. Suppose you are an employer evaluating two Johns Hopkins grads, both with bachelor's degrees in electrical and computer engineering. </p>

<ul>
<li><p>One has an ABET BS degree. This includes a minimum of 45 units in ECE, 20 credits of math, 6 other engineering units, and 16 units in basic sciences. Includes requirements for design courses and minimum GPA.</p></li>
<li><p>One has an unaccredited BA. This requires only 30 units of ECE, 20 credits of (less difficult) math, no other engineering, and no other sciences. No design requirement or minimum GPA.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>The difference between the accredited and unaccredited ECE degrees is not trivial: it would probably concern you as an employer. It would be unusual to encounter this situation today, but if the ABET MS degree becomes common, the non-ABET BS degree will probably become common as well.</p>

<p>Wouldn't the BA degree most likely be earned by students planning on getting their MS?</p>

<p>The movement towards this system actually feels a bit closer to what the exchange students I've met from Europe do. They have five years of college for undergrad, but graduate with a rough equivalent of our masters degree. If they want to keep going to school, it's just for a PhD. Personally, I'm pretty fine with our current three-tiered system, especially since five years of schooling here is a lot more expensive than five years in Europe where most of their education is publicly funded.</p>

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Wouldn't the BA degree most likely be earned by students planning on getting their MS?

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<p>What makes you say that? I can see two groups of people who would consider only getting a BA degree in engineering:
1. Those who plan on going into a field other than engineering.
2. Those who plan on going into an engineering field where the lack of ABET accreditation and/or course rigor won't hurt them.</p>

<p>I don't agree with this decision. I don't think our economy needs more credentialism. The marketplace is astonishingly good at determining which schools are better than others.</p>

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The marketplace is astonishingly good at determining which schools are better than others.

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<p>In the case of civil engineering, which pushed this through, the marketplace banded together and essentially demanded this. If the full-engineering lift on the ban didn't work, they were going to go back in and ask for a civil-environmental-architectural engineering lift on the ban. ASCE has been pushing this for years.</p>

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What makes you say that? I can see two groups of people who would consider only getting a BA degree in engineering:
1. Those who plan on going into a field other than engineering.
2. Those who plan on going into an engineering field where the lack of ABET accreditation and/or course rigor won't hurt them.

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<p>While I agree with #1, I'm not so sure about #2. While all my friends and myself got a BS accredited by ABET, none of us complained about the higher number of courses we had to take within our major. Most of us were actually complaining about having to take so many humanities classes and not being able to focus on the classes we really wanted to take!</p>

<p>Earlier it was mentioned how Hopkins and a few other schools are offering BAs in Biomed Engineering. Does anyone know any stats about graduates of that program? Like, how many decide to go on to med school instead of industry/grad school? I could definitely see the arguments for skipping out on harder math, physics, and engineering classes in order to take what are typically grade-boosting humanities classes in that case.</p>

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While all my friends and myself got a BS accredited by ABET, none of us complained about the higher number of courses we had to take within our major. Most of us were actually complaining about having to take so many humanities classes and not being able to focus on the classes we really wanted to take!

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<p>That's actually the case with me and my friends as well. I even took an extra few graduate design courses when I was in undergrad, but I know there are definitely some that would like more humanities courses (as one poster earlier stated). Also, didn't you go to CMU? Isn't that perceived to be one of the tech-iest schools in the country? People who go there for engineering don't go there to take Philosophy 101. It's just not representative of the general population.</p>

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I don't think our economy needs more credentialism.

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Well it isn't the economy driving this decision; it's the welfare of the general public. I want to know which elected officials would actually go against increasing qualifications for engineers. How would they justify their decision to their constituents? No I'm against it because I want to save money even though it means I'm putting safety at a higher risk?</p>

<p>Forget about the economy. Safety first. NYC's DOB just announced that it will be spending $4M to hire engineers to study high-rise concrete construction sites and to recommend safety improvements. Sadly, this is happening as we have lost 13 people due to construction accidents in this city in 2008 so far. Nobody's going to care about spending a few extra dollars for more qualified engineer.</p>

<p>Well, yeah, CMU is a place of a lot of anti-humanities sentiment, but many of my friends still wound up with some sort of minor outside of technical fields. Off of just my friends within my major (all 17 of us in my year) I can think of the following non-technical minors: design (while doing a BS/MS degree in four years), photography (while doing a biomed double major), psychology, technical writing (while doing an engineering and public policy double major), and I think there was a person or two that did a foreign language. One of my friends even wound up doubling with psychology (while doing his ROTC). Heck, another actually did a dual degree on the French horn. That means he didn't just double major, but completely satisfied the credit requirement for both majors independently. After graduating, he took a year to study abroad in Europe on the horn before going to grad school for materials science.</p>

<p>Most of us enjoyed the handful of humanities electives we took, but we just resented the requirement of the breadth/depth that was placed upon us. We'd much rather have had a more open choice of humanities classes to take. And, surprisingly, many people's hobbies were in the humanities and not technical fields. I think I was the only one of my MSE friends that would willingly write a software program.</p>

<p>I think by and large engineers actually have very diverse interests; it's just that they prefer to discuss them outside of a classroom setting.</p>

<p>sorry if i'm going out of the topic, but I thought this would be the past place to post this.
Can you guys help me find the average starting salaries of MS graduates from top schools like MIT, Caltech and Stanford and berkeley.</p>

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We'd much rather have had a more open choice of humanities classes to take.

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<p>Another thing where we're similar. At my undergrad, we take 8 humanities/social science courses, with the first four being a core and the last 4 being electives. I enjoyed the electives a lot more, and would have taken one or two of them even had I not needed to satisfy requirements.</p>

<p>Kind of off-topic, but CMU's public policy double major with engineering was something I found to be very interesting when I was applying to colleges. It's too bad it seems to be the only college that I know of that offers something of this nature.</p>

<p>Brahmin, probably best to start a separate thread for that, and I'm not 100% sure anybody around here would know... best way to find that stuff out is to start digging around in the schools' websites. I think MIT publishes a salary survey somewhere on their site.</p>

<p>Here's Caltech's info:
Caltech</a> .. CAREER DEVELOPMENT CENTER .. Salaries ..</p>

<p>I don't think they offer many MS degrees since most people here stay all the way through for their PhD (not even sure how many programs offer terminal MS degrees).</p>

<p>Since I went there, here's CMU's as well: College</a> of Engineering - Post-Graduation Survey Results - Information for Students and Alumni - Career Center - Student Affairs</p>

<p>Both schools have it under their Career Center under the tag "Life after X" or "Post-Graduation Survey."</p>

<p>ken, I had thought about doing the E&PP double major, but I heard it was kind of a joke and you didn't learn a lot from it. Based on what I heard from my friend that did go through with the program, she said it really wasn't worth the extra time she had put into it. A shame, because I think that's really an aspect of engineering more people need to become concerned with. I do think a lot of schools out there offer some sort of E&PP MS degree, though I don't know many engineers that feel that's the complete direction they want their career to go.</p>

<p>That's too bad. It does sound like a great concept in theory though and it definitely is important to engineers. For example... this thread, ABET accreditation is ALL about public policy (I knew I'd find a way to bring this back on topic!). I believe ASCE's BOK (body of knowledge) suggested public policy be part of what an engineer should understand. If I remember correctly, they did not recommend that this be instituted as part of the formal education, but rather gained through experience. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.</p>

<p>A E&PP MS degree is probably too much though. That sounds like it's geared towards potential lobbyists or people who'll be working quite a bit in that field.</p>

<p>Yeah, that's what I felt a MS in E&PP would wind up leading to, which isn't what I want to do for my career. Personally I feel one of the biggest problems scientists and engineers face in society is that their achievements aren't recognized. I definitely think things such as Modern Marvels and How It's Made are helping out (seriously, who doesn't like those shows), but it still seems like a very abstract benefit to their life.</p>

<p>I used to volunteer during National Engineer's Week when I was at CMU, and my department would have a booth at the Carnegie Science Center. On weekends, tons of boy/cub/girlscouts, brownies, school classes, school clubs, etc would attend the exhibition (local companies and other departments at Pittsburgh schools also had their own tables). It was easy to get the kids interested in what you were doing because of the whiz-bang factor. What I found a lot harder, and more rewarding, was talking with the parents that didn't want to waste their Saturday at some stupid nerd convention since they felt nothing we did was ever actually useful. Getting them to understand the vial needs that scientists and engineers satisfy in our society was the really fun part. For some reason, the idea of using shape-memory alloys as joiners to replace soldered joints in deep underwater pipelines was more exciting than glasses that won't break, braces that don't require tightening, stronger cars, and thinner TVs.</p>

<p>Whoops, off topic for a bit there.</p>

<p>CMU's MSE program tried to cover that "public policy" type of requirement by ABET with a seminar class we had to take every year for 1 credit. One year we did ethics, another year we did public policy, and the third year was project management. It was a good class, but I kinda wish we had had more in depth classes on each topic.</p>

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Personally I feel one of the biggest problems scientists and engineers face in society is that their achievements aren't recognized.

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<p>Me too. NYC Mayor Bloomberg is current trying to abolish a city regulation that the Commissioner of the Department of Buildings has to be a licensed architect or engineer. I don't know about everybody else, but that sounds absurd to me. Would you want an attorney general who didn't pass the BAR exam???</p>

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University administrators set curricula, so if university administrators care about ABET requirements, I don't understand why employers' hiring practices are going to somehow influence the very insular academic world and change university officials' minds about what degree programs should include and what they shouldn't...

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<p>I think it's quite simple: at the end of the day, what students really care about is getting a job. The only time that students will therefore really care about accreditation is when employers care. If employers don't care, neither will students.</p>

<p>See below. </p>

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But I think that the question is moot, because in the (unlikely) event that states began licensing bioengineers in the future, then MIT, Stanford and Berkeley would pursue ABET accreditation in that field.

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<p>Would they? I think that remains to be seen. Again, see below. </p>

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Actually, I think that a degree in "energy resources engineering", even from Stanford, would provoke questions from a potential oil company employer. Nobody would know what the heck it was. A potential employer would probably want to know: is this different from a "regular" Petroleum Engineering degree? And "regular" ultimately means "ABET". </p>

<p>In this case, the lack of an ABET degree wouldn't necessarily disqualify the applicant -- especially right now, when the supply of "regular" PetEs is tight. But the employer's comfort level with this unusually named degree would probably be higher if it also happened to be ABET-accredited in Petroleum Engineering.

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<p>Is that right? Then let me give you another example. </p>

<p>It wasn't that long when Berkeley used to offer an unaccredited BS Petroleum Engineering degree program. Trust me - those graduates had no problem in getting jobs from the very best oil companies in the world, despite their lack of accreditation. </p>

<p>I think the issue is something you alluded to before: no state (as far as I know) actually accredits petroleum engineers, just like no state currently accredits bioengineers. Hence, accreditation for petroleum engineers is a moot point. </p>

<p>Similarly, Berkeley also has (and had for a long time) an Earth Resources Engineering BS program (or perhaps it was called GeoEngineering). Again, believe me, these guys had no problem in securing jobs in the oil industry despite its unusual name. And this was when the oil economy was bad, i.e. in the late 90's when oil was just $10 a barrel. </p>

<p>Now, is it true that having ABET-accreditation in petroleum engineering might matter on the margins? Yeah probably. But that's what I'm saying - the benefit is marginal, and in particular, is swamped by the school name. Would you rather have an unaccredited BS in Petroleum Engineering from Berkeley or even an unaccredited BS in Earth Resources Engineering from Stanford, or an accredited BS in Petroleum Engineering from, say, the Missouri University of Science & Technology (formerly the University of Missouri-Rolla)? I don't know about any of you guys, but that's not a close call to me at all. The value of the accreditation is practically nil compared to the value of the school's overall brand name. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Here's a real-world situation that could arise today. Suppose you are an employer evaluating two Johns Hopkins grads, both with bachelor's degrees in electrical and computer engineering.</p>

<ul>
<li><p>One has an ABET BS degree. This includes a minimum of 45 units in ECE, 20 credits of math, 6 other engineering units, and 16 units in basic sciences. Includes requirements for design courses and minimum GPA.</p></li>
<li><p>One has an unaccredited BA. This requires only 30 units of ECE, 20 credits of (less difficult) math, no other engineering, and no other sciences. No design requirement or minimum GPA.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>The difference between the accredited and unaccredited ECE degrees is not trivial: it would probably concern you as an employer. It would be unusual to encounter this situation today, but if the ABET MS degree becomes common, the non-ABET BS degree will probably become common as well.

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<p>And here is a counterpoint real-world example that already exists today.<br>
Berkeley offers an accredited BS computer science program through the College of Engineering (as part of the EECS program). Berkeley also offers an unaccredited BA computer science program through its College of Letters & Science. </p>

<p>So you might say that the lack of accreditation in the latter program might concern some employers. Yet the fact remains that the latter graduates actually receive higher average starting salaries than do the former graduates. That's right - higher. The unaccredited graduates were getting paid more. And not by a little bit. In 2006, the difference was about $9000 per year extra in average starting salary.</p>

<p>Career</a> Center - What Can I Do With a Major In...?
Career</a> Center - What Can I Do With a Major In...?</p>

<p>Now, one might argue that perhaps the comparison is unfair, as the accredited EECS program has some students who pursue relatively lower-paying pure EE careers as opposed to higher-paying CS careers. However I doubt that that changes the analysis much anyway, as most Berkeley EECS students choose the computer science emphasis and hence are basically CS students. Certainly, I doubt that any adjustment would be enough to account for the full $9k difference in average starting salary.</p>

<p>To reiterate, nobody is disputing that the accreditation has some value. What I am saying is that - again with the exception of civil engineers - that value is pretty marginal and certainly is dwarfed by the brand name of the school itself. For example, I highly doubt that anybody is turning down Berkeley or Stanford for bioengineering in favor of some no-name school just for the accreditation. That's because bioE employers simply don't care about accreditation, and even if the states were to accredit bioE's, employers still wouldn't really care, just like most EE/CS employers today don't care about accreditation. Believe me, a Berkeley BA CS grad is not going to be hurting for jobs despite his lack of accreditation.</p>

<p>Total 278 $70,000 $61,730 $55,000 $61,000
Total 120 $75,000 $66,024 $57,000 $65,000</p>

<p>That only looks like a difference of $4-5k, a year, which I think could easily be explained by the EECS people pursuing engineering careers and not only CS ones.</p>

<p>But, yeah, I agree in that case accreditation doesn't matter a whole since employers probably care more about the classes the students took than what the actual degree they have says.</p>

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since employers probably care more about the classes the students took than what the actual degree they have says.

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<p>Well, actually, I don't agree that most employers actually care very much about what specific classes a person took either. Granted, a few do. But generally speaking, the specific classes you took, along with accreditation, seem to be rather marginal factors.</p>

<p>Just consider this thought exercise. Imagine you're interviewing with an employer and they love you because you have the right experience (i.e. through internships or co-ops), you have the right personality, and you crush the interview. Are they really going to then not offer you the job simply because you didn't take certain courses? For most jobs, that's highly unlikely.</p>