Academic Path for Prospective HS English Teacher?

Parents Forum
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<p>I’ve noticed that many of the Parents posters have teaching backgrounds. I guess that makes sense. I hope no one minds if I attempt to tap into the collective wisdom for some thoughts about academic paths for likely HS teachers.</p>

<p>Brief background: My D is a very high achieving student at at top midwestern, suburban, public school (top 1-2%, 34 ACT). Her EC’s are exceptionally strong in theater and chorus, good in writing and tutoring, and pretty average in other areas. She is very bright, focused, and truly a natural leader. People simply want to be around her and tend to follow her lead. She wants to attend a dynamic, vibrant college, where a diverse group of students with an intellectual (yet fun) bent enjoy their college academic and social experience. Schools like Brown, Princeton, Amherst, Pomona, Vassar, WashU, Emory will definitely be getting an app from her.</p>

<p>Career ideas: Assuming that the professional acting thing doesn’t work out . . . she has long aspired to be a top high school teacher, in ENGLISH (literature), ideally teaching AP English, running the theater program, and perhaps running the country on the side. However, she has been increasingly thinking that being a college professor could be a good fit for her personality/interest too and wants to leave this door open. The key thing is that she seeks information about the minimum threshhold level requirements to get hired, BUT, also, those additional factors that make a given candidate very marketable and desirable.</p>

<p>The technical questions (some of which we know, or believe we know the answers to; others of which we don’t have a clue).</p>

<li><p>If you want to teach H.S. English, you major in H.S. English, preferably at an incredible school, where you can get a great English education, right?</p></li>
<li><p>I’ve assumed that to be hired by a H.S., a prospective teacher ALSO needs some type of certification beyond the simple bachelor’s degree. Is this right?</p></li>
<li><p>Some schools seem to proudly advertise that in addition to their bachelor’s degree in English, they offer “teacher’s certification,” while other schools are completely silent on this point. Q’s: Is it necessary to get certification from your undergraduate institution, or, can you get it from other sources after you get your undergraduate degree? Upsides or downsides of either approach? Logistics (additional time, expense, etc.)?</p></li>
<li><p>I thought I’ve heard that individual states do not always accept certification coming from a different state. Can this be checked before the college selection is made? If it matters, she’s most likely to want to teach in Illinois or in Michigan (of course, this can change).</p></li>
<li><p>Going beyond the bachelors/certification issues, what is the thinking about master’s degrees? How useful is a masters degree in making a given HS teaching candidate more marketable, attractive, or desirable? And, does a prospective H.S. English teacher get a masters degree in English, or, instead, get a masters in such fields as education, counseling, psychology, etc.?</p></li>
<li><p>And if this wasn’t enough, about that potential college professorship gig: PhD in English all the way, right?</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Thanks so, so much to anybody who takes the time to respond to part or all of these admittedly basic questions (basic to people in the biz, anyway).</p>

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<p>my daughters is interested in teaching, so we have been investigating a few of your questions.
I would reccomend a degree in english with a masters or whatever program your state requires for teacher certification.
<a href="http://www.rnt.org/channels/clearinghouse/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.rnt.org/channels/clearinghouse/&lt;/a>
much more info,highly recommended</p>

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<p>The best high school English teachers major in English - not "education" or "high school English." And yes, to teach college English one needs a PhD if one wants to get anywhere! (Some community colleges still take teachers with only a master's). In our school system and probably every other one in the US, a teacher with a master's degree gets paid more than one who does not.</p>

<p>To teach at a public school, you need to be certified; many private schools do not require certification. A person CAN get certified after getting a regular bachelor's degree - I know many, many people who have done it. But it takes longer - you generally (around here) go into a one-year program where you student teach.</p>

<p>I am sorry I have no info on how states regard other states' certifications.</p>

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<p>Many colleges have special courses designed for prospective teachers, but students are expected to major in liberal arts concentrations. They usually go on to a M.Ed, taking more courses in graduate schools of education and doing a practicum by being assistant teachers in elementary or high schools.
Currently, a student teacher is helping in my S's English class. She has a B.A. from Georgetown and is studying for her M.Ed. A previous student teacher graduated from Princeton. A Stanford graduate is working as a student teacher in a math class while pursuing an M.Ed.
One of his elementary school teacher had a very strong interest in theater. She had a B.A. in English and a M.ED. The school mounted plays at various levels, beginning in first grades with plays based on fairy tales, through 5th and 6th grades with Shakespeare plays, 7th and 8th grades with skits written by the students themselves. Another teacher had also been involved in theater prior to being hired at the school; her experience was considered a real plus when we hired her.
Our high school has a number of teachers with Ph.D.s, some in education, others in fields such as anthropology, biology, and so forth.
Each state has its certification procedures.</p>

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<p>My daughter is hoping to be a high school history teacher. She's concentrating on finding a good history program, not really worrying about whether she can take education courses. We have talked with several history teachers who have advised us that this is the best course because she may decide to teach anywhere and it would be best to get her certification in the state where she wants to teach. Here in Calif. the certification program takes about a year of post graduate classes.</p>

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<p>Thanks to all for some wonderful responses. My D has much to research and think about.</p>

<p>Carolyn:
We've heard similar advice from some young-ish, top English teachers with top-school backgrounds. For a variety of reasons, she is interested in pursuing English at the highest possible level at college. We're told that many principals and other hiring people certainly see someone coming from a recognized, top program as a POTENTIALLY attractive candidate. So, education courses per se aren't a part of her undergraduate focus. Yet, there are some schools on her list where she can also obtain "teaching certification" contemporaneously with obtaining her bachelor's degree. And, because of AP credits, both might be possible within 4 years. We're also told that with some holdouts, MANY states are going to a sort of reciprocal certification for new teachers and the "get certification in your teaching state" rule of thumb might be going the way of the dinosaur. But again, I don't claim any expertise here whatsoever; just know what I've been told.</p>

<p>Remaining question: Does anyone have any thoughts on the value of getting a master's degree before starting your teaching career? I could only assume that it makes you potentially more desirable (to certain hiring people) and marketable. If so, would a master's be more beneficial in the substantive area of interest, e.g., English, or in education, counseling, or other related field? And, if teaching certification hasn't already been obtained, am I correct in assuming that someone can probably attempt to get this certification at the same time that one is pursuing her master's degree. As I think about it, a couple of student teacher's at my D's school are currently Master's students (bachelor's degrees obtained in other states, but coming "home" to get the master's, and, I guess, the teaching cert).</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

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<p>At our local middle school, the principal has a mail order Ph.d. from St. Kitts. Most of the high school teachers I've met have a B.A. plus teaching certificates from Western Washington U. or Central Washington U., occasionally a Lewis and Clark or U.W. or Washington State. There are some M.A.s, but almost all of them earned after they started teaching (if they had them beforehand, the schools would have to pay more.) And our district is extremely desirable to teach in.</p>

<p>Never met a high school teacher out here with a Ph.d. in any subject. I taught at a community college back east for 6 years when I was A.B.D. (this is 20 years ago, though. I had a masters in English from Oxford, and a 4-subject masters from the University of Chicago) I was told that if I finished my dissertation, they would have to let me go, as there wasn't any extra funds to pay me, and the union contract required it. In Georgia, they have been experimenting for the last 5 years with hiring teachers with no degrees whatsoever, and (it is said) no negative effects on education quality. I think we will see a trend toward there being "master teachers" (with merit pay) supervising lots of paraprofessional (non-union members) in the "delivery" of curricula, but I expect this will hit the high schools last. In California, in large parts of the state, fewer than 20% of teachers have certification in the subjects they are teaching.</p>

<p>But I would concur that the best prep for teaching English is English, not teaching it. And principals would love to see more top candidates. So would we all!</p>

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<p>Thanks Mini -- that's some eye-opening stuff in your post. My D isn't going into teaching expecting Utopia. On the other hand, I think most people understand better than ever before that virtually ALL industries have their darksides -- all you need do is talk to doctors (get them started talking about malpractice risks, insurance companies, and HMO's), accountants (post-Enron, anyone?), and dot.com gurus. You can drive yourself crazy trying to predict or time "hot" careers. But, a time tested method for success continues to be: find something you love and be among the best at it. That certainly insures personal satisfaction and I think maximizes chances at professional success (however you choose to measure success) too.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
At our local middle school, the principal has a mail order Ph.d. from St. Kitts.

[/quote]

It isn't a secret that organizations including school districts don't do good background checks, look at the superientendent prospects that Seattle had. Several of the top three candidates were run out of their town on rails but that didn't come up in the background search. It doesn't mean that districts turn a blind eye to fraud when they are hit over the head with it. They do have teachers with Ph.ds as well generally in the sciences, but I agree that you don'thave to have one .</p>

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<p>Hi, my daughter is a high school English teacher two years out of college. She was also required to take a number of education and education theory classes, it wasn't just a matter of majoring in English.In fact, had she not decided to major in education her freshman year and start taking those education classes, she would have not been able to graduate in 4 years. If your daughter is bright, has great grades and does well in student teaching she should be able to find a job in her field.Concerning the Masters, different states and school districts may have different guidelines. As it was with my daughter the first class she was given to teach was a 'specialty' class with a requirement that she have a Masters or additional certification within 5 years.</p>

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<p>I think the requirements are different depending on where you live. In NYC you will need at least 36 credits in the major (english) in order to teach middle school H.S. english. In addtion you must take and past the LAST (Liberal Arts and Science Test) CST (Content Speciality Test) ATWS and do a video, for preliminary certification. You must obtain your masters within 3 years of employment. There are also bumps in salary when your get 30 or 60 credits above your masters.</p>

<p>It would still be hard to get a job as an english teacher in NYC because english and social studies are not shortage area where as you can get many perks being a science or math teacher (In my daughter's MS/HS math and science teachers got free tuition for Grad school at NYU)</p>

<p>In the NYC school syustem especially at the higher performing schools does where you went to school make a difference, yes. Some principals are partial to various schools. When My Daughter was in elementary school where the focus was on collaborative education /multi-age groupings , her Principal was a Bank Street Graduate, so many of the student teachers and new teachers were Bank Street graduates because their education was pretty much aligned with the education given at the Elementary school. When she got to MS/HS a lot of the teachers are have masters from NYU/Teachers college-Columbia University. With those who believe that going to an Ivy is a waste of money if one is to become a teacher there are quite a few Ivy league graduates at the school. 9th grade bio teacher go bachelors at Brown, Masters at Harvard and has a 100% pass rate on the NYS bio regents.</p>

<p>The Head of the English Department is a PhD candidate at Teachers and teaches english teachers. Almost all of the new teachers that she hires are students which she has taught.</p>

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<p>"Thanks Mini -- that's some eye-opening stuff in your post. My D isn't going into teaching expecting Utopia. On the other hand, I think most people understand better than ever before that virtually ALL industries have their darksides"</p>

<p>Oh, I don't think there were any darksides in my post. The middle-school principal kept his job, and people think he's great. Our district is very desirable for teachers. Our schools are considered among the best in the state (likely because they are the most white, but that's another story entirely.) But like the entire west coast, there isn't much money in teaching, and school districts have learned (or think they have learned) that the higher degrees don't necessarily reflect teacher quality. (In California, it is a little different, as in some areas, the search for warm bodies takes precedence over teacher quality - they just don't pay enough in many areas for teachers to live within a hour of where they teach in the richer areas, and teacher turnover in places like L.A. or Oakland is so high they basically gave up trying to find teachers certified in various subject areas years ago.)</p>

<p>The Georgia stuff is what you should be concerned with. The "master teacher/paraprofessional model" may become the wave of the future - it is a way to incorporate merit pay/higher pay for some teachers with a free-market approach to the delivery of content. From what I'm reading, I think that once they break the backs of the union, you'll see that in Chicago next.</p>

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<ol>
<li> yes</li>
<li> in almost all cases, though there is some interest around the country in allowing obviously able candidates to teach without initial certification. And in the past, some private schools have not required certification - not exactly sure what that story is today. </li>
<li> if the undergrad school does not offer state certification it usually takes an additional year (+ student teaching) at another institution to get certified </li>
<li> Typically, it's a good idea to get certified in the state where you think you want to teach as standards do vary. This site may be of some help: <a href="http://www.uky.edu/Education/TEP/usacert.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.uky.edu/Education/TEP/usacert.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/li>
<li> Most of the teachers I know with masters degrees got them after beginning teaching as their districts pay a bit more for teachers with advanced degrees. This will vary by district. All things being equal, you might think a masters or PhD would give someone an edge. However, if the contract required higher pay for an advanced degree I suppose that could be a negative in some situations. </li>
<li> PhD (or working on one) all the way for a college/university teaching position.</li>
</ol>

<p>In our area I've only seen high school teachers with PhDs at a few private schools. However, there seem to be quite a few administrators with masters and doctorates in Education.</p>

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<p>I guess my children's school must be unique. We have a fairly large number of PhD's teaching - 2 in the English department, 2 in the history department, 2 in math, 3 in science, and 1 in foreign languages. Nearly all of them taught at the college level before coming to our school. Most of the other teachers have masters in their subject areas. But, it is a private school.</p>

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<p>Not surprising. Actually, quite typical for the best private schools. But how many have teaching certificates, or took courses in "education"?</p>

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<p>I go to a public school, and not 1 teacher has a PHd. So I would consider it pretty darn unusual</p>

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<p>My S goes to a public school. So far he has had 3 teachers with Ph.D.s. There are more throughout the school. There is one Ph.D. (from Harvard, nacht) teaching in elementary school because he loves working with kids.</p>

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<p>What is the income of parents in the geographic area surrounding the school?</p>

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<p>The teachers I know have all told me it is far better NOT to get your Masters until you have been hired, and are already in a school district. They've experienced more highly qualified teachers get turned down, because they must come in at a higher pay level. They found it is easier to get a job (at least in the public schools), at a lower pay level, and work up in the pay scale while teaching. I even heard the superintendant basically say the same thing (about preferring to hire new graduates over experienced teachers) at a board meeting -- and then say something totally different to the PTA. I think some of the continuing ed. expenses are also paid by the school districts...but I'm not 100% sure of that.</p>

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<p>Mini:</p>

<p>I don't know the income of the parents in our city. We have more $million houses per capita than other cities, but we also have many excellent private schools in the area. Our high school has 25% students on F/R lunch, and has about 48% minorities. </p>

<p>We benefit from being close to the Harvard Graduate School of Education, which is why some of the student teachers have undergraduate degrees from Princeton, Georgetown, Stanford, and the like. One of the Ph.Ds. (Tufts) is teaching at the school thanks to a partnership with the biotech industry.</p>