<p>I read the thread here on subject tests and the thread in the MT forum about 4 years of language with great interest because my Junior D is facing similar dilemmas as she makes her schedule for next year. We are struggling to support her as she sifts through all the static about college admissions and shapes a Senior year that excites her. She is academically motivated/successful but NOT a math/science kid and I feel like its hard for her to balance her passions (theater, literature, history) with creating a transcript with a rigor that will appeal to colleges. I expect my kid is not alone in this dilemma.</p>
<p>The only math class she can take in the fall conflicts with a Shakespeare seminar that she would dearly love to take (and which is a demanding course in its own right). And being unable to take the seminar precludes her from having a lead in the spring Shakespeare production. But she feels like she should take the math in order to beef up her transcript. She came into our bedroom at 1 a.m. in tears over this so I know its not something she is taking lightly. </p>
<p>She wants to drop math altogether 2nd semester anyway to double in history but is told that she needs to stay in math the whole year.</p>
<p>In science, she has had physics, chem and bio and wants to do an independent study in psychology next year. She is being told that won't count as a real science to the colleges so won't appear as rigorous as a different science elective.</p>
<p>None of this matters for audition programs but with the odds so tough (plus she really wants a balance of strong academics and acting which makes some BA programs appealing) she is looking at a range of schools some of which won't care if she drops math and science and others (Northwestern and Vassar) that will and others that we just don't know. Maybe she just needs to suck it up and either take the math/science or accept she is unlikely to get into those particular schools (she LOVES Northwestern). That is not the end of the world. And its all a bit of a crapshoot anyway.</p>
<p>But I hate that our kids are being discouraged from following their passions by trying to meet ever increasing demands for "rigor". Why does it feel like that translates to taking math and science even if that isn't your passion? </p>
<p>/end rant.</p>
<p>Any words of wisdom or sympathy? I feel like I can't guide her because my own experience is so long ago and so different. And of course her GC is telling her what colleges expect because she doesn't want my D to be blindsided. But its left my high-achieving but artsy kid with a bad case of the blues.</p>
<p>Your D is in High School, correct?
I took a shakespear class my senior year instead of taking a math too! Um… I can’t really tell ya. I suppose taking that math class may have helped me get into some schools i didn’t, but I feel so much better STILL for taking that shakespear. It’s a give and take, and she should realize that as long as whichever class she’s taking, she’s working hard, it IS benefiting her!</p>
<p>I did have to take math this semester at college because i didn’t take math my senior year of high school, that’s alright, i accepted it. In my opinion, ask her which class does she feel she will learn more from. It’s education, you’re paying for it. Remember that. Theater in academics is always a balancing act because in and off itself, the idea isn’t practical, but academia is! Ultimately, this decision is probably not going to make or break her college application, especially if she’s already a really good student. and I bet a shakespear class will look good too!</p>
<p>Well, high school, when it comes to coursework, is partly about getting the core academic subjects in your background and not specializing as much in coursework around interest areas. That is what you get to do in college. Even if someone is not interested in math and science, it is considered an educational background to have learned these academic core areas prior to college. </p>
<p>That said…I am not sure your D needs both the math and science courses (I’d have to see her entire transcript to weigh this much better…however!). </p>
<p>But she has already had Bio, Chem, and Physics…the three major core sciences colleges wish to see (with labs). So, she accelerated in science (for example, at our high school, it would be impossible to have bio, chem, and physics by end of junior year as you can’t even take bio until tenth grade). And if your D wants an independent study in Psychology, I think that would suffice with the three sciences she already did. So, I would go along with that. </p>
<p>For math, I don’t know how high she has gotten already in math. That would be part of my decision. Has she already taken Calculus? Pre-Calculus? Or just up through Algebra II? If only up through Alg. II, I think she surely should have up through Pre-Cal. But also, if her math class conflicts with Shakespeare (is there only one section of that math level??), consider taking math online through Johns Hopkins CTY or similar (like EPGY). That way she could do both. Or even independent study math (my D who went into theater was up to AP Calculus in junior year and it conflicted with English and History…this was because no other junior was up to Calculus and so it was scheduled when the highest level English/History course for 11th grade took place which she needed to be in…and so she did AP Calculus independent study one period per day, sitting in the math dept. chair’s office and was given the assignments and exams but did not get to attend the actual class). That’s how we worked that out.</p>
<p>You really have to look at each kid’s entire profile and transcript as it is hard to take situations out of that context. There is no one size fits all of what you need to do to get into a good college. One kid who didn’t have this or that, had something else on the record to compensate and so on. </p>
<p>For that matter, my kid didn’t even DO senior year and got into a perfectly good college: NYU. (for example, she never had Physics because you can only take physics in 12th grade at our school)</p>
<p>By the way, she did get to take Shakespeare, which is typically just for seniors at our high school, as she had an interest in it, and the teacher invited her to take it and she was only in 8th grade. That same year, she was the lead in the high school play/drama (directed by same English teacher who taught Shakespeare to seniors). So, there are so many if’s and’s and but’s and each situation really varies and it is the total picture that you have to look at, not whether one person has an anecdote of no math, or of no science, or of no something else.</p>
<p>LeftofPisa, you surely read my comments re my S’s GC when he decided not to take math as a senior. He did take Pre-Calc as a Junior and had no interest in Calculus having hated every minute of Pre-Calc. I don’t know how I ever raised such a kid so true to himself but I’m glad that I did. He heard his GC, weighed his options and decided he’d rather be true to his academic passions then conform to what other people thought was right for him. As you know, it worked out well for him. Additionally, he used that experience in an essay for an Honors application and was admitted to that program as well! </p>
<p>It seems to me that in the quest to create the perfect profile, people lose sight of themselves. Honestly, I feel that my S’s application presented a clear picture of him and that is what primarily led to his success in admissions offers. It didn’t need to be the perfect curriculum in terms of rigor and he didn’t need to have a 4.0/2400 and cure rare diseases in his spare time. In fact, he even had the dreaded typo on his application which wasn’t caught until after hitting submit! But he wrote a great essay, one in which you “knew” the kid and could totally relate to him. And his EC’s, leadership roles and volunteer work was all primarily performance related which is what he planned to study in college and bring to the campus community. It captured the essence of HIM as a unique and interesting individual. It was an impressive application but it was in NO WAY perfect. Granted, there ARE plenty of kids out there that do seem to have the perfect curriculum and the 4.0/2400 and all that but they get rejected sometimes, too. It’s a part of the process. Better to be true to yourself and present the unique portrait that is you then to worry about what makes for the perfect application.</p>
<p>As soozievt points out in her post above, “There is no one size fits all of what you need to do to get into a good college.” EXACTLY. And this decision, where your D needs to weigh the pros and cons of each course and come to a conclusion that she is happy with, is good practice for the bigger college decisions like where to apply and ultimately where to go! Good luck! :)</p>
<p>As I wrote in another thread, you can’t really take one anecdote out of context and place it into another situation. You can’t really say across the board whether to take math in senior year. For example, sandkmom’s son went up through Pre-Calculus already. My advice for a kid who only went up through Alg. II and was trying for more selective colleges may be different than for sandksmom’s son for senior year as to whether to take math. LeftofPisa’s D already had Bio, Chem, and Physics and likely could do away with another lab science in senior year but that may be different than a kid who only had Bio and Chem, for example. You really have to look at the whole profile of the student, as well as in context of their own high school, and so on. Each situation is so different, that I don’t think you really can make any blanket statements as to whether or not to take math senior year, or whether four years of foreign language are necessary and so on. I don’t think one can plant a decision over a course from one kid into another kid’s situation. Too many factors to look at that are quite individual. Most selective colleges examine a student in a holistic fashion and don’t have cut and dry cut offs about GPA, certain courses, etc. It really is the WHOLE picture.</p>
<p>When we’ve asked this questions at admissions visits, my D has been encouraged to keep her own balance, but respect their desire for “academic rigor.” They just say not to do anything that really looks frivolous. I don’t think they’ll nitpit one course, and I do think for “artsy” kids it’s OK practically anywhere to drop either math or science senior year - that just makes sense for that kind of person.</p>
<p>What my D decided when planning her senior year was that she would keep 4 academic subjects out of 7 possible hours. This respects what colleges have told her they want, but gives her time for what matters to her. If “academics” are generally math, English, social studies, science and foreign language, then that gave her one she could drop. She had always said she’d drop science senior year to make space, because it’s her least favorite subject. But she’s had such a negative experience with foreign language at our HS that she’s actually decided to take chemistry after all. You could have knocked me over! She doesn’t mind math, and has actually gotten pretty good in pre-calc, and our calculus teacher is very well-liked (she’ll likely get a B, but that’s plenty respectable). And honestly if her applications and admissions are going well, she probably could drop Chem second semester if it’s a nightmare (especially if she picks up some other academic class, or uses the time to TA something). But she’s showing good faith that she knows HS is for education first, and I think colleges will respect that.</p>
<p>We would have been OK if she’d dropped science altogether, because as much as we know there’s a big game trying to impress colleges, they’re not stupid and it would have been worth the risk if she’d rather focus on humanities. She takes 2 choir classes (auditioned and select chamber singers), has been in band and also is happiest if she can have an art class,so she needs those 3 hours available - if a college thinks she’s stinted the academics, then she doesn’t need it, IMO. She’ll actually have 1.5 social studies classes next year because they require 1 sem of Econ and APUSGov is taught in a full year. She’d rather not use so much time on SS, but the 1 sem non-AP gov is an AWFUL class. BTW, I believe most schools would see Psych as a SS class, not science. In most colleges it’s social science.</p>
<p>Colleges have to know kids need these choices and need to pursue what matters to them. The tippy top academic schools like Northwestern will expect that huge push in everything to the very end, but I’m sure even they would understand a certain limit to one’s interests in one area. I’ve seen many kids allow some time senior year to stop being an automaton and be more like a college student. Follow your passions; just don’t go too far.</p>
<p>I dropped science my senior year in favor of two free periods (completely frivolous) and am finishing my first year at USC. Artsy kids are allowed to not have math/science in their senior year.</p>
<p>Much sensible advice above-- but keeping in mind that two extremely talented young women I know: 4.0 gpa, 2300 SAT’s, tons of AP’s including Physics and Calc etc., were just rejected from Vassar, while being accepted, of course, at many great schools like Chicago and Brown etc… I would let my D go her own way. It’s clear that she’s challenging herself, if she’s taking Shakespeare and Psych and 2 history classes. I think she’d feel better having studied deeply in her areas of interest. And I don’t think the loss of one semester of math is going to tip the balance at any top school. (Though, would she consider a sex change? I’ve known a number of boys with much lower stats and less rigor who’ve gotten into Vassar in the past few years.)</p>
<p>My D was faced with a similar dilemma in her senior year. She had taken pre-calculus but was missing a statistics class. Her HS schedule did not allow for an extra math class at the school so she took a statistics class in the evening at the nearby community college.
She got into UCLA and got UCLA credit for the statistics class.</p>
<p>Thank you so much for all your support and wisdom. It really helped me to clarify things in my own head so I could be open and supportive of her as she worked it through herself. I think she figured out a way to balance academic rigor and her own passions. She decided to take a summer math course and sign up for the Shakespeare seminar. She realized the alternative would make her miserable. And she’s taking a semester of animal behavior to beef up the “soft” science of psychology. She is happy with how her Senior year is shaping up and I’m happy to see her happy! </p>