<p>Anyone willing to comment on the academic rigor of the Vanderbilt curriculum? Although Peabody has a nearly universal reputation for its ease, I have heard that coursework in the College of Arts and Science is strenuous--math and the sciences being particularly brutal with grade deflation the norm. </p>
<p>Considering these are all really bright kids who have most likely already taken college-level courses in high school, why are they all so challenged at Vanderbilt?</p>
<p>I can only speak from a parent's perspective, but I think one of the challenges is that the same amount of work that is expected from students in 16 week semesters at other institutions is covered in 14 weeks at Vanderbilt.</p>
<p>at last year's admitted students reception, this topic dominated the convo......current students said that grade deflation was DEFINITELY the only negative about Vandy.</p>
<p>In spring of 2008, the average undergraduate GPA was 3.317. The average freshman GPA was 3.153 for men, and 3.167 for women. I don't consider this overly tough grading. Instead, I think it sounds about right for a talented student body in a challenging academic environment. I'm sure much of an individual's performance has to do with the major, the student's ability to balance academic and social life, and the random luck of the draw re which professor he/she gets.</p>
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Considering these are all really bright kids who have most likely already taken college-level courses in high school, why are they all so challenged at Vanderbilt?
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<p>Think about it...while a vast majority of frosh maybe top decile in HS, by definition 49.9% of them will end up in the bottom half of Vandy's graduating class. </p>
<p>A 3.3 is about average for a highly selective private college whose name does not start with H, S or M (and other tech-heavy schools). Frosh sciences courses are difficult at EVERY college, if for no other reason, to winnow out the premeds. But, a 3.1 'feels' low relative to other top private colleges.</p>
<p>A colleaugue was bemoaning the grade deflation at Vandy for her D who is a junior, but she "forced" her to go to Vandy instead of any of the other schools she applied to. Kind of a cultural thing. Anyway, as she put it, it's hard to get an A at Vandy and almost nobody gets a C at an Ivy!</p>
<p>When I applied for Peabody I had no idea that it was known for its ease. Do you think it's applicable to all majors? </p>
<p>Also, where is this idea of "NO C'S AT IVIES" coming from?</p>
<p>I was only quoting what a colleague said so I can't speak for her source of this statement</p>
<p>The problem with the grade deflation is really for the students who plan to go on to professional or graduate school, and I would think there are a lot of them.</p>
<p>While Vanderbilt is a prestigious name, I'm not sure a 3.3 GPA is going to stack up against a 3.6-3.8 from any institution.</p>
<p>I certainly don't believe in grade inflation, either, but I don't see the point in making these intro math/science classes unnecessarily difficult. My daughter had many high school friends--who have never been the level of student she is--who made very high dean's list gpa's at various state schools or less prestigious private universities in their first semester. You can't tell me the intro calculus and chemistry are the same if these kids are earning As. Ultimately, it's just going to limit the opportunities for these Vanderbilt undergrads as they move forward, which seems contradictory to the educational mission.</p>
<p>mamster-I wonder if the same holds true for graduate school admissions as for college admissions where the "quality" of your school is taken into consideration? My S currently attends a very rigorous high school and I have had the same experience you explain with your D's friends, but on the high school level. He has friends that earn easy As (even in AP classes) and have over 4.0 gpas at many other schools. I know if they attended my S school there is NO WAY they would have those type of grades. It can be very frustrating for the kids. On the other hand, I believe the colleges took this into consideration as many of his peers are attending top schools without the "stats" you read about on this board. Perhaps the same will hold true for graduate school with Vanderbilt. I hope so!!</p>
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I wonder if the same holds true for graduate school admissions as for college admissions where the "quality" of your school is taken into consideration?
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<p>Only marginally, for schools like UChicago and Reed among major colleges, with known deflation, and certain majors like Engineering. Even Cornell, reputed the 'hardest Ivy to graduate from' has a 3.3 mean gpa. Harvard, with all it's honors graduates, only has one or two 4.0s graduates each year -- B's maybe 'easy' there (with C's rare) but a full A is hard.</p>
<p>Of course, the rigor of Cal-Berkeley will easily be seen over a Cal State Uni, but a 3.0 from Cal has no chance at med school. Professional schools are (almost) all about the numbers. Grad schools count relevant research and recs much more heavily.</p>
<p>OTOH, there are very few colleges that have a mean graduation gpa of 3.6. Granted, many humanities majors graduate that high, but the sciences tend to bring the total college average down. It's more like a 3.4 from xx college vs. a 3.3 from Vandy.</p>
<p>As a current student I will tell you that Vandy is tough just like any other Top 20 school, but there can be a lot said for taking the right courses. There are plenty of oppurtunities for the grade grubbers and grad school hopefuls to take the right courses with the right professors and make higher grades. Almost all of the classes I have taken thus far at Vandy have been both engaging and challenging; however, while there is virtually no such thing as an easy course at Vandy, there are some that aren't too difficult ( cough.... history of country music.... cough).</p>
<p>dwhite: funny that this is a Vandy thread....last year, we felt like they were the ONLY top school that took that into consideration......(other than ivies that know how deflated our grades are).</p>
<p>Dirthog,</p>
<p>Any other courses and or professors that you recommend?</p>
<p>What is your major?</p>
<p>Dirthog, Country Music might cause you to <em>cough,</em> but it's kind of a cool class to take to fulfill the American History-type AXLE requirement. Like probably the majority of Vandy students, my D had a high enough APUSH score to get out of US History in college - but Vandy still expects everyone to take an AXLE in that area. My D had NO country music background - so that class was really interesting for her. What a great way to learn to appreciate that genre - in its birthplace. History of Rock was another great mind-expanding experience. My H & I tried to get our D to appreciate our musical heritage, but it took a Vandy course to get her to understand why we consider the music of our youth to be influential - and good! AH, some common ground.</p>
<p>D has also taken an architecture class that she would never have considered had she not had to fulfill an AXLE requirement. She actually likes it. Score another one for a well rounded liberal arts education.</p>
<p>In general, the difficulty of the class depends upon the professor, even for the same course. The exceptions are the classes where the tests are departmentalized, such as General Chemistry.</p>
<p>Although the AXLE requirements may initially seem overwhelming, they really are not very restrictive. For example, this semester I am taking Survey of the Blues, which is simply a great class. It fulfills the US History requirement, and it's really not that hard. There are so many courses that fulfill each requirement that you can always find a few courses that you will enjoy. Next year, I may take History of Rock n' Roll to fulfill the humanities requirement, which I initially dreaded. Also, of the 13 required AXLE courses, many will probably count toward your major anyway.</p>
<p>As far as the rigor of the classes, there really is no class where you can just skate by without doing anything at all. Even the easy elective classes require some amount of effort. But classes like Biology or Organic Chemistry that are meant to weed people out will obviously be very difficult since they are usually curved so that the average is a low B-. </p>
<p>In terms of GPA, I would say that the grading is generally very fair. Obviously the humanities courses have higher average grades given out. In general, people get what they deserve here. Although a 4.0 is quite hard to get b/c of the fact that an A- is worth a 3.7, it is definitely possible, even with a schedule loaded with premed classes. Grade deflation is not really an issue except possibly in the math department and with a few specific professors.</p>
<p>I've been reading this board for about two years and, up until now, have felt like my daughter is the only one who finds grading at Vandy to be extraordinarily tough. It is gratifying to hear that she's not the only one. Today's New York Times has a story about undergraduates who believe that they deserve an A if they've tried their hardest and done all of their assignments, and it quotes a Peabody administrator. Kids who get into Vandy have a history of getting As if they try their hardest, and it is a rude awakening at Vandy to learn that sometimes one's best isn't good enough for an A! That said, there is no question in my mind that the grading and the course content at Vandy is more rigorous than at "peer" institutions. My daughter didn't suddenly get less studious or less intelligent than her friends who have taken similar courses at Tufts, Williams, Brown etc. and gotten much higher grades. Vandy is a really hard school! I'm not complaining (she is) and it may hurt her chances at some grad schools. There is obviously variation among departments, but as others here have testified, As are extremely hard to come by in math, bio, and economics at Vanderbilt.</p>
<p>deleted post.</p>
<p>Has anyone actually heard of Vandy grads having a more difficult time attaining admission to a top law school simply because of the grading policy? I realize there are many many factors at play but if a smaller percentage of grads are going to top law schools when compared to similarly situated undergrad universities like Emory, Wash U, Rice etc..., then maybe there is some truth to the whole grade deflation "rumor" and if someone is intent on attending a top law school after college, maybe Vandy is not the right place for them.</p>
<p>Just putting this out there :)</p>
<p>I just did a bit of research on the Vandy site, looking for information on recent law school placement rates, and came up with nothing. So this is merely anecdotal: my d knows friends from Vanderbilt at Yale, Harvard, Georgetown, and UVA Law Schools. I'm sure they're exceptional students, but I think they prove the point that you can get into great law schools from Vanderbilt if you're willing to work hard while you're there. So I don't think I'd put it quite the way you did above, MOMofknowitall ("if someone is intent on attending a top law school after college, maybe Vandy is not the right place for them ..."). If someone is intent on attending a top law school after college, maybe they'll have to make undergrad grades a priority - that seems more like it to me.</p>
<p>As stated earlier in the thread, the average GPA at Vanderbilt is a B-plus (3.31). This doesn’t really sound grade-inflated to me. I quickly checked around for the average undergraduate GPAs at similarly selective (if not more so) institutions, and came up with these:</p>
<p>William & Mary – 3.26
Emory – 3.32
Dartmouth – 3.37
Wash U – 3.41</p>
<p>(Hint: if a school has an Office of Greek Life, it should post an annual report which includes the average GPAs for each sorority and fraternity chapter, the undergraduate Greek GPA, and the overall undergrad GPA. I don’t know where to find this info at non-Greek schools.)</p>
<p>I'll agree that many, if not most, of the students at Vanderbilt earn lower GPAs in college than they did in high school. But I don’t think that there's the kind of wholesale "grade deflation" at Vandy that serves to keep its students out of top law schools.</p>