Accepted to Boalt. Any advice on how to succeed?

<p>
[quote]
NO. </p>

<p>What I said was that it is not a good use of time to enage in the activities you mentioned.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ummm, here's what you said earlier:</p>

<p>
[quote]
So I stick with my recommendation to not spend any time getting ready for law school, and to not bother reading any books on law school in advance either because even they won't make sense until reality strikes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Looks to me like you're changing your tune without acknowledging it. Of course, you are free to do so but it undermines your credibility when you make claims like this:</p>

<p>
[quote]
At the most, if one wants a leg up on a course, one could read the textbook that will be used for that course, just as advance reading of the materials for a college course could be helpful.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If any potential law student are reading this, take note that most first-year law school classes use "casebooks" not "textbooks." The difference is that a casebook contains -- for the most part -- cases. (By "cases," I mean opinions written by judges in deciding cases.) While there is value in reading and understanding various cases, the fact is that you will probably NOT be tested on your knowledge of the cases per se. Instead, for purposes of the exam, there is usually 1 important point that you need to learn from the case. The moral of the story, so to speak. </p>

<p>Further, a lot of the "cases" that you read are written in language that is difficult to understand. The upshot of this is that you can spend a lot of time and energy studying cases that won't help you very much when it comes time to write the exam. </p>

<p>If you are skeptical of what I am saying, I invite you to read a few "how to succeed in law school" type books. It will only be a couple hours of your time.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Studying old exams is not a good use of one's time until one has seen what students are supposed to do with the material they are taught.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not sure I understand your point, but I can say that from the point of view of getting good grades, students are "supposed" to write good exams.</p>

<p>My two cents:</p>

<p>Get Glannon's civil procedure hornbook and read it in the summer. Know it, love it -- he makes it easy to do both. This can be quite painless bedtime reading.</p>

<p>I'm skeptical about other preparation, at least where T14 schools are concerned, because in some of your classes you're likely to have a purely theoretical or philosophical professor who never actually talks about contracts/property/etc. Studying an evidence text is a huge waste of time (and possibly even counterproductive) if you're going to end up in Charles Nesson's Evidence class. So wait until your section is assigned and you have some idea whether you're going to need to know the blackletter stuff in outlines.</p>

<p>Dear lskinner, whoever you may be:</p>

<p>When I said "textbooks" I meant textbooks, otherwise known as "hornbooks", not casebooks. I agree that reading casebooks in advance of entering law school is not a useful activity.</p>

<p>Having done quite well in law school, I don't think that I need to read any of the materials you mentioned. </p>

<p>And I also don't think that you're in any position to judge whether my credibility is undermined.</p>

<p>Before this thread devolves into a street fight, I would like to ask why some people think preparing for low school may actually be counterproductive. Assume that a person will be starting law school in 7 months and is excited enough about the experience and the law to want to start going over material ahead of time. If she does this simply with an eye to having a bit of fun, exploring what areas most spark her interest, and possibly familiarizing herself with terms (i.e. Res Ipsa) so that when they are touched upon during the semester she is more comfortable with them, is she really damaging her potential law school success? </p>

<p>Maybe people think it will be a general waste of time to prepare in advance, but what is the consensus (or lack there of) on its potentially detrimental effects. I ask because several attorneys/retired law Profs. that I know have advised me against early prep as if by doing so I will somehow damage my law school intellect. I’m not preparing early so that I can walk into my 1L classes with a confident swagger and masterfully think circles around my classmates. I am, however, the type of person who feels better, and therefore learns better, when I have at least a cursory grasp of the material. I guess my question is, if I enjoy preparing and it could make me a bit more comfortable once I get to law school (even if only for the first week), am I foolish to do so?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Dear lskinner, whoever you may be:</p>

<p>When I said "textbooks" I meant textbooks, otherwise known as "hornbooks", not casebooks.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Perhaps, but here are your exact words:</p>

<p>
[quote]
At the most, if one wants a leg up on a course, one could read the textbook that will be used for that course, just as advance reading of the materials for a college course could be helpful.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>(emphasis mine).</p>

<p>I don't know about your law school, but where I went, there wasn't a single class that had a "hornbook" assigned to it in the same way that a college course might have specific materials that would be used. So basically I have no idea what you are talking about. Are you saying that your law school classes typically had a "hornbook" AND "casebook" that would be used for the class? Just a hornbook?</p>

<p>
[quote]
Having done quite well in law school, I don't think that I need to read any of the materials you mentioned.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm not sure what your point is here, but if any potential law students are reading this, please take note that most people will agree -- at a minimum -- that <em>during</em> law school, commercial outlines, old examinations, and model answers can be very very useful. You will meet people who just like dadofsam give you the "bullet and a bottle of whiskey" line. ("I don't need no stinkin' outlines") Take it with a grain of salt. </p>

<p>
[quote]
And I also don't think that you're in any position to judge whether my credibility is undermined.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I don't see why not. This is an anonymous message board. Everyone can (and should) be skeptical of what they read here. That's why I have invited people to check my claims against outside sources.</p>

<p>
[quote]
I guess my question is, if I enjoy preparing and it could make me a bit more comfortable once I get to law school (even if only for the first week), am I foolish to do so?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I'm sure it won't surprise you that my answer is "no." For what it's worth, I didn't specifically prepare for law school. However, in the course of my job between college and law school, I learned a decent amount about transferring and recording interests in real property. This didn't help me or hurt me very much during my first year, but when I took a class in real estate transactions, it was very helpful that I pretty much knew what the professor was talking about while many of the other students were mystified. The other students eventually learned, but quite frankly my knowledge and understanding was superior on these issues. Ultimately when I took the bar exam, I nailed all the questions about real property without any stress. The same questions caused a lot of anxiety for many other students.</p>

<p>So I would say that I reaped a small but measurable benefit by starting law school with a basic understanding of a narrow area of the law.</p>

<p>In the same way, if you start law school with a basic understanding of contract formation and enforcement; of federal civil procedure; etc., I don't see how it could hurt you and it might help you quite a bit.</p>

<p>My instinct is that many of the people who object to this sort of advance study do so because they see it as hypercompetitive and ugly. Moreover, if enough people study in advance and get an edge by doing so, then it will start a rat race in which everyone studies early not to get an edge, but simply to keep up with the pack.</p>

<p>But to me, those considerations are irrelevant to your question. Because we are not discussing what is best for law students as a whole. We are discussing what is best for law students as individuals.</p>

<p>So I would say do a little advance study but keep it to yourself. When some retired professor tells you about the evils of advance study, just smile and nod and laugh to yourself. </p>

<p>Just my humble opinion.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Ultimately when I took the bar exam, I nailed all the questions about real property without any stress.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I should add that it was probably a bit of a fluke that a huge proportion of the property questions had to do with recording etc. But still, when I took Bar/BRI, I somehow felt that property was "my subject," and I feel that I learned the whole subject better. When I took property in my 2L year, we didn't touch on stuff that I already knew, and I didn't feel as though I had any edge. But still, my knowledge was "chicken soup," so to speak. i.e. it didn't hurt.</p>

<p>jtm1--
first year law school, especially at a top school, has very little to do with how law actually is in practice or about preparing for what will be on the bar exam -- it is about studying theories of how common law changed over time, it is about learning to read cases with a certain critical eye unlike how you have read anything before. it is about thinking you understand something one day only to learn the next that different courts held differently and there really isn't always a way to reconcile them though everyone tries. it is far more theoretical than practical. </p>

<p>and more importantly, different professors can have vastly different approaches to their subject -- at the school i attended (one of the top 5) it was not uncommon for students in different professor's classes to have very different experiences in terms of the specific subject areas addressed, the relative importance placed on them, the theoretical underpinnings emphasized or criticized by the professor. i mentioned in an early post that in one case the differences were so extreme it was hard to imagine that we were learning the same subject as the other professor's class.</p>

<p>i recall one instance of a class mate who was stuggling and therefore tried to get a grasp on what he thought was coming next. he spent a great deal of time studying ahead in the hornbook and review books on a specific topic that the casebook presented as quite a complicated topic. he felt confident that when the professor got to that topic, he'd be on solid ground. well the prof opened the lecture on the topic by saying, "a few years ago i found this topic a lot more interesting, but the rule of law is now clearly X, what i really want to focus on is Y." the student who had prepared to answer questions on all the nuances of the development of the rule of law was called on and fumfered his way through because he was asked something he had never seen coming -- and while it is not unusual for a student to fumfer his way through questioning, the fact that he was expecting something else probably made it even worse. </p>

<p>though reading review materials while in a class may help (though that is for each student to judge for himself once in a class -- i knew people who tried them and found them counterproductive ), the issue being raised here is whether to spend time ahead of time looking at them. and i do believe that it can be counterproductive because it predisposes the future student to think that things that they read will be relevant to what the professor will teach and there is a real possibility that will not be the case. even if your goal is not to get a swagger or mastery, you may lull yourself into a belief that you are more comfortable with the material than you in fact end up being -- and it can be hard to let go of what you read ahead of time when the professor chooses to go in a different direction. and at top law schools that happens -- the professors often aren't there to address the routine or even to believe that there are anythings that are routine.</p>

<p>i knew students my first year who came in thinking they knew something about some of the material. perhaps a college con law class made them think our first year con law class would be easier for them. perhaps they worked as a paralegal and thought all that transactional work would help contracts make sense. in my experience, those people were not only disappointed, but in fact a little befuddled as they tried to deal with the fact that they didn't know what they thought they knew. </p>

<p>the fact that you are being told not to do this not only by lawyers but by law professors is i think telling -- its not just a matter of "i suffered thru it this way, so you should also." i can't help but think that those profs are telling you this because they've seen too many instances of students thinking they knew more than they did and they saw how counterproductive that could be. ask them why they are giving you this advice.</p>

<p>this isn't an issue of my thinking this behavior would be hypercompetitive and ugly, because i don't think it would give any competitive advantage. it's a matter i think of students falling victim to the idea that there is always a way to prepare ahead of time for their a difficult academic struggle. there are ways to prepare -- i listed some in a prior response -- but, i just don't believe that trying to study the subject matter of your first year classes ahead of time isn't one of them.</p>

<p>(and in case it isn't clear already, i will emphasize again, that i am addressing the issue of what to do prior to even beginning law school -- not what one should or shouldn't do once there or how courses taken after first year may differ or how one should prepare for the bar exam.)</p>

<p>lskinner:

[quote]
Are you saying that your law school classes typically had a "hornbook" AND "casebook" that would be used for the class? Just a hornbook?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>For the most part, that's correct. For most of my classes a textbook or hornbook was recommended or required. For those where it was not, there still were from one to three basic textbooks/hornbooks that were available for purchase. A textook can clarify confusion caused by casebooks or professors. </p>

<p>
[Quote]
:
Having done quite well in law school, I don't think that I need to read any of the materials you mentioned. </p>

<p>I'm not sure what your point is here, but if any potential law students are reading this, please take note that most people will agree -- at a minimum -- that <em>during</em> law school, commercial outlines, old examinations, and model answers can be very very useful. You will meet people who just like dadofsam give you the "bullet and a bottle of whiskey" line. ("I don't need no stinkin' outlines") Take it with a grain of salt.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>We were discussing what if anything should be done before starting law school, not during school. And I didn't, and don't, give anyone the "bullet and a bottle of whiskey" line.</p>

<p>
[quote]
For the most part, that's correct. For most of my classes a textbook or hornbook was recommended or required. For those where it was not, there still were from one to three basic textbooks/hornbooks that were available for purchase. A textook can clarify confusion caused by casebooks or professors

[/quote]
</p>

<p>If I may ask, where did you go to law school and roughly when did you graduate? Because that experience is completely different from mine and other people who went at around the same time as me. Perhaps things have changed since I went to law school. Or since you went to law school.</p>

<p>
[quote]
We were discussing what if anything should be done before starting law school, not during school. And I didn't, and don't, give anyone the "bullet and a bottle of whiskey" line.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Ummm, here's what you said earlier:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Having done quite well in law school, I don't think that I need to read any of the materials you mentioned.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Your statement didn't seem to be limited in any way in terms of time. But as I said before, I'm not quite sure what your point was.</p>

<p>lskinner: we're getting off-topic. My posts were aimed at giving advice to the OP on his/her question but we've moved to challenging each other. </p>

<p>Bye.</p>

<p>
[quote]
lskinner: we're getting off-topic. My posts were aimed at giving advice to the OP on his/her question but we've moved to challenging each other.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Personally, I think there is value in questioning other peoples' advice and the basis for that advice. Frankly, it looks to me as though the position you've staked out is rather difficult to defend. You are of course entitled to your own opinion.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Bye.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Bye.</p>