<p>Sorbonne>ucsd</p>
<p>Dude, I'm French, I go to the Sorbonne, I graduated with a mention assez bien. Even students with mention bien are SO not in the top 1%. I know what I'm talking about... so I'm going to say this once and for all: French students who live in Paris and graduated from HS can NOT get rejected.
But if you're International, that's another story... but if you apply as a freshman and have decent grades, you're practically accepted.</p>
<p>I'd like to know, on the other hand, how a Sorbonne degree is seen by the admission officers of, say, USC or Berkeley. Thanks a lot.</p>
<p>I have now verified this with 2 Professors in Paris. There are almost no selection criteria for the Sorbonne except for a very few programs which require some language skills or are otherwise restricted. All bac students living in Paris can go to all the U's that are the "Sorbonne." </p>
<p>One prof added that having lived in the States for a year, he "can only dream of sending one of his children" to a top UC.</p>
<p>It's a lot of people's dream, might I add.</p>
<p>"Mention Bien is the equivalent of a student ranked in the top 1% of her/his class, 4.0 unweighed GPA and a 1400+ on the SAT."</p>
<p>It makes no sens to make equivalencies like that, the two systems test different things. I know people who were top 1% and got mention tres bien on their bac who got 1840 on their SATs. Its very misleading to say that. And whomever said that la sorbonne was easy to get into, thank you. Most of the programs there just require the bac for admission. There are a few "selective" programs but its not as good as it used to be. </p>
<p>BTW well over 50% of students in french "facs" (universities) repeat their first year because its a very laid back slacker atmosphere.</p>
<p>The best french students go to Preparatory, Scienco Po and Dauphine</p>
<p>Sebma, I think I am qualified to compare the French system to the US system. I did complete my education in the French system all the way until the 9th grade and I eventually graduated from an international high school with a US high school diploma and British A Level.</p>
<p>What people don't realize is that only 70%-80% of French students are even allowed to get to the level of the 1ere and terminale. The remaining 20%-30% go to trade school because their grades aren't good enough to meet the standards. Yes, the French high school system is very tough and inflexible. It is a shame really, because many late bloomers are not allowed to develop and reach their potential.</p>
<p>Of those, only 70%-80% who are allowed to pursue the bac, only 60%-70%will pass it. In other words, only the top 40% to the top 50% of French high school kids pass the bac and of those, only a small praction get mention bien and mention tres bien. A mention tres bien is roughly equivallent to valedictorian status at a competitve high school. A mention bien is equivallent to a top student. </p>
<p>I agree that the Sorbonne is not as great as it was 500 years ago or even a mere 50 years ago. And I was definitely wrong in assuming that a mention bien is required for admission. However, for highly motivated students in certain disciplines, it is still a great choice. Of course, French universities like Science Po, HEC, Polytechnique etc... are much more competitive, but the Sorbonne still holds a special place.</p>
<p>I'm not questioning your "qualifications" to compare both systems. </p>
<p>But I don't think you can say "Mention Bien is the equivalent of a student ranked in the top 1% of her/his class, 4.0 unweighed GPA and a 1400+ on the SAT." because, as I'm sure you know the system tests differently. You give such a detailed equivalency. In my Lycee there were people that applied to american Unis (myself included) and many had 14+/20 averages. Very few of them had 1400+ SAT (old SAT math+reading).</p>
<p>And yes a mention bien especially in the S "series" is quite impressive. And La sorbonne is a gd uni just not as good as it used to be OR as good as people were saying it was earlier in the forum.</p>
<p>Sebma, I never said that Mention Bien students would get 1400+ on their SAT. I said it is the equaivallent. Tell me, the students at your lycee, those who struggled with the SAT, did they grow up studying in English and taking multiple choice exams? Did they prepare for the SAT?</p>
<p>Alexandre:</p>
<p>It is distressing that a supermoderator on these boards can be so misinformed and worse persist in providing poor advice after been corrected by numerous posters.</p>
<p>How can can you provide guidance on an educational system that you have not even experienced first hand? (attending middle school hardly qualifies!)</p>
<p>As far as my own qualifications, I went through the entire French educational system, Bac, classes preparatoires, Grandes Ecoles (Polytechnique) before going to grad school in the US at MIT. I now have a US born daughter finishing high school and applying for admission to colleges this fall. I also a number of nieces and nephews going through the french secondary school system as we speak.</p>
<p>Never in my wildest moments would I advise her to attend a French university, under any degree seeking program. (I could see the value as part of a study abroad program for language immersion.) UCSD, a university with 8 Nobel prize winners on the faculty would be an infinitely better choice than the Sorbonne.</p>
<p>I am not going to discuss the Classes Preparatoires/Grands Ecoles (CPGE) in detail as this route as it is generally not available to foreigners who have not gone to high school in France. The two main professional areas the GE do not cover are law and medicine which are reserved to universities. So even for humanities or the social sciences for instance, by far the finest education in France is found at the Ecole Normale Superieure, a school even tougher to get into than the Ecole Polytechnique. Classes are small, resources are plentiful (the schools are heavily subsidized by the French government), the teaching is superb and the student body is extremely qualified.</p>
<p>Recently, to expand their international visibility, the Grandes Ecoles (including the Ecole Normale Superieure and Polytechnique) have set up programs which allow foreign students to spend a year in France as an exchange student. You will not get a degree from the school and it is not easy to get credit for classes taken because of the very different programs. Still, for somebody fully fluent in French and intent on getting a high quality french educational experience this could be an interesting option, especially as tuition at the Grandes Ecoles is low by US standards and the quality of teaching is top notch. The best Grandes Ecoles are also very well know to US universities as many french students pursue graduate studies in the US. The exchange programs are only available to juniors or seniors in college from the US as all students have at least two years of post bac education. Most GEs are also residential and only admit a few hundred students per year. </p>
<p>In regards to the french university system, unfortunately very little positive can be said about it:</p>
<p>-First of all the statistics on bac failure are vastly inflated. In good french high schools 95%+ of students pass the bac. (In my former high school 100% have passed it the past five years). It may have been a tool of selection a long time ago, but it no longer is. Actually, so many students now pass the bac that the universities, which are required by law to accept all bac holders, are completely clogged. </p>
<p>-Universities first serve the students from the local region , then students from outside the region (not unlike public universities in the US). Any lowly bac recipient from the Paris region will have priority over an applicant outside of Paris to get into the Sorbonne (or any other Paris university).</p>
<p>-To a US student, most facilities at french universities would appear shockingly old, overcrowded and even dirty. This is not surprising as they are largely free to attend. Teaching quality is often abysmal. As far as any personal interaction with professors, you might as well forget it. Social interaction is also poor as most students commute to school.</p>
<p>-It is also important to understand that the french educational system is by its nature largely pre-professional (as is most of Europe's). You do not go to university to get a well rounded liberal arts education. You have to select your major before applying to a university. The first year as a pre-law or pre-med student (the two main professions reserved to universities) are brutally selective, with only 10-15% being accepted into the second year. </p>
<p>The first degree offered by french universities, the "licence" would have little utility for a US resident. It is generally not recognized as equivalent to a BA or BS degree and would not provide entry to US graduate schools, or medical, law or business schools. It is mostly an alternative route into the Grandes Ecoles. </p>
<p>In summary, in no uncertain terms would I discourage anybody from attending a French university as an alternative to a US university as a freshman after high school. It is not at all clear that any credit would be granted for subsequent studies in the US and the year would be largely wasted. </p>
<p>A year at a French university (or even better a Grande Ecole) as part of study abroad program during the junior year in college is by far a better alternative. These programs are already in place at many colleges.</p>
<p>To answer Alexanders question:</p>
<p>Almost all of those who were applying to american universities had spent at least a significant portion of their lives in the US. And yes most took SAT prep classes. Very few had over 2000 (new SAT) and the ones who did were typically mention tres bien students and had lived their entire lives in the US. Even with less than perfect SATs many of these students got into excellent universities because the french system is very respected. Have you heard of many people getting into Cornell or Dartmouth w/ less than 1900 SAT?</p>
<p>I can't give you numbers or statistics so sorry for all the normative answers.</p>
<p>Second I didn't say that you said that a metion bien student would get such and such. I said that I don't think that one can equate the two.</p>
<p>Cellardweller, I do not recall recommending a French university over an American university for academic reasons. French universities are completely difference from American universities. If I recall, I was mainly trying to accomplish two things in this thread:</p>
<p>1) Make it clear that the French high school system is very rigid and tough.</p>
<p>2) Give my opinion on the cultural and social benefits of studying in one of the World's greatest cities. </p>
<p>And Cellar, studying abroad for one year is fun, but it is not the same as living in a country for 4 years.</p>
<p>Sebma, someone who gets 14/20 in maths in a French bac should have no problem scoring 99% on the math SATs. Universities will make allowances for the verbal score of French applicants given that English is a second language.</p>
<p>Cellardweller, good points, but you discount the cultural elements and the tremendous richness of the environment at the Sorbonne vs UCSD. That element alone could IMHO tip the scale towards the Sorbonne.</p>
<p>"Sebma, someone who gets 14/20 in maths in a French bac should have no problem scoring 99% on the math SATs."</p>
<p>Wrong. I scored a 16 and got a 26 or so on the Math ACT.</p>
<p>Zules, that is unusual. Did you attend a French school in the US or in France?</p>
<p>French school in France... You overestimate the Bac, seriously.</p>
<p>Zules, you underestimate me. Every member of my very large family exept for me has completed their entire primary and secondary education in the French system. I have yet to hear of a 14/20 math/science student in the French system not ace the math section of the SAT. By ace I mean over 750. And I am not talking about 5 or 6 members of my family. Of my 5 uncles, 6 aunts and 40+ cousins, more than half took the SAT and studied in the US or Canada. Of those, 60%-70% took took the Science route and they all aced the Math section of the SAT...even those who weren't "mention material"! I must admit none of them took the ACT, but I cannot imagine the Math section of the ACT is any harder than the Math section of the ACT. The only thing I can assume is that as a person educated in France and a non-native speaker of English, the ACT structure, not content, confused you.</p>
<p>The material in the SAT is pretty straightforward, the level of difficulty is very low by French high school standards, the difficulty lies in that it's a very unusual format, requiring speed and focus. By contrast, pure maths (which is what is emphasized in France) require deeper problem-solving skills. The SAT is much more coachable.</p>
<p>cellardweller: great rundown. I really disagree with your relative assessment or UCSD and the Sorbonne. It's obviously a personal matter, and I will try to take the time to elaborate my position.</p>
<p>I agree with much of what cellardweller said.</p>
<p>Apart from that:
The bac and SAT are extremely different exams. The bac cares more about how you get to you're answers rather than the answers themselves. It's the exact opposite for the SAT. Speed is a huge issue in the SAT. In the bac they give you several hours to carefully "redige" your exam a lot of emphasis is put on clarity and syntax especially in math and physics. The individual problems on the bac are usually part of a larger exercise that forces you to apply you're knowledge. If you ask me the bac is far more effective in determining a students' readiness for college.</p>
<p>Many times the SAT doesn't come as easily for students who have been accustomed to the french system most of their lives. I know of many examples where students with 14 or over, even in S, did not "ace" (as Alexander defined it) the SAT math.</p>
<p>And I definitely think that between UCSD and Sorbonne one should chose UCSD. Of course a year abroad is always great and for that sorbonne is a good choice (however there are better ones).</p>
<p>I still don't think that you can equate (in a meaningful way) a bac score with an SAT score/GPA etc...</p>
<p>btw I took the bac and SAT earlier this year at the DC center in June</p>
<p>CalX:</p>
<p>The issue is not comparing the Sorbonne and UCSD as institutions in the abstract but more specifically what if anything a US student would gain by seeking an undergraduate degree at a French university as opposed to a major public university in the US. My point is that the value of a French university degree (a "licence" which is a 3 year degree) to a US applicant is very low. It does not have any direct equivalence in the US system unlike inside the EU where a student could readily get credit for his studies. It would not be possible for instance to study law as an undergrad at the Sorbonne and expect to get into law school in the US. In addition, as a non EU resident, the US student would be largely prevented from taking any paid internships in France during his stay. I am willing to bet that among the thousands of foreign students at the Sorbonne, not a single one is a non-resident US citizen pursuing undergraduate studies. </p>
<p>The only US accredited programs are those that are specifically developed between US and French universities. The Sorbonne has for instance a joint law program with columbia University. Most of these programs are graduate not undergraduate. See <a href="http://www.columbia.edu/cu/alliance/aboutalliance.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.columbia.edu/cu/alliance/aboutalliance.html</a></p>
<p>I'll have to say that I still can't understand how I got a 16 and also that I was a ES, not a S. That said, I don't believe you can correlate a Bac score and a SAT/ACT score. </p>
<p>CalX said it all. The SAT focuses on time, while the Bac requires problem-solving skills...</p>