<p>
[quote]
It gets subjective when you compare the best at Marshall compared to the best at Cal.
[/quote]
Yes it does. Think about this: i don't know the number of students at Haas ug, but if you take that number of the top students in Marshall ug and compare it with Haas' overall group, i'm willing to bet that marshall would come out on top because you're selecting the best in a larger group and comparing it with another group of the same size.</p>
<p>You know, I think Haas is the better school (by a small margin), but if I was a student just graduating, I might very well pick Marshall if accepted to their business school.</p>
<p>The reason is simple--I'm guaranteed admission to their business school. If I go to UC Berkeley, I may be in the 42% that doesn't get into the business program--and then what do I do if I really have my heart set on my major?</p>
<p>Keep in mind that the original question on this post wasn't what was the better school, but rather which school would you choose? So if I was counseling someone, and money was not an issue, I would probably tell them to go to USC, because if I were them, that's what I would probably do.</p>
<p>And TrojanMan720, while I disagree with some of your analysis, I do admire the way you stand up for your school and bring up the good points--including the networking and alumni support when you were the only one arguing for USC and everyone else (including me) has been arguing the merits of the UCs.</p>
<p>
[quote]
The reason is simple--I'm guaranteed admission to their business school. If I go to UC Berkeley, I may be in the 42% that doesn't get into the business program--and then what do I do if I really have my heart set on my major?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>A very good point. I remember my friend telling me this change was very recent, and until last year? a few years ago?, one had to apply to Marshall like Haas, but now one is admitted dirrectly into Marshall.</p>
<p>The OP is a transfer student already accepted into Haas, that's why i recommended that he goes to Haas. However, I completely agree with Calcruzer. If money is not an issue, risk is definitely a consideration. The average admit GPA is 3.6 into Haas. The "back up" major economics has an average admit GPA of 3.4. So if you don't get at least a 3.0+, you may end up in a third choice major.</p>
<p>If money is not a consideration for me and I had to major in business, then the decision between USC and Cal would be a difficult one. Although there are separate threads about majoring in economics and I personally wanted to major in business economics at UCLA. I do personally like UCLA more than Cal holistically. However, one minor reason to throw me in the UCLA direction instead of Cal was the risk of not getting into business administration or economics at Cal.</p>
<p>The truth of the matter is i can care less where NSR decides to go. I'm just trying to clarify exactly what Marshall has to offer.</p>
<p>The way i see it, it's a win-win situation for him because both schools are great. The question is which school would benefit him more?
-If i were NSR and money was an issue, i'd choose Haas because you'd get a great bang for your buck. </p>
<p>-However, if money was not an issue, then it's Marshall all the way.</p>
<p>I have been accepted to Haas, money is not an issue, and basically, yes I am asking which is the better school.</p>
<p>Even if money is not an issue, Haas is better.</p>
<p>I'd recommand Marshall for accounting, but anything else, Haas....</p>
<p>I don't have a lot of time to post, but I'll just go over a few points:</p>
<p>1- Haas is the elite of the elite within Berkeley. It has a small-college intimate feel and a superb faculty that has great Haas school spirit and is very tight, friendly and approachable, in addition to being clearly superior to USC's faculty. Many faculty members have lunch with the students at the Haas cafeteria, or at the gorgeous Faculty Club two buildings away (which is open to students too.) Many will invite you to their houses for BBQ or make a point of having dinner outside with their students. It has all of Berkeley's great qualities and very few of its downfalls, it's almost a separate college within Berkeley.</p>
<p>2- The concept of USC/Marshall placement being superior to the one from Haas is pure urban myth. McKinsey doesn't even recruit at Marshall. That is the top consulting firm in the world, and but one example. A lot of the elite national recruiters only make two stops on the west coast, Berkeley and Stanford, and sometimes UCLA. USC is next on the pecking order. Your chances of getting a top job and your spectrum of choices out of Haas is superior to that from USC.</p>
<p>If you want to work for a large corporation in LA, like say Disney or Occidental Petroleum, you will do very well with USC, but those companies also recruit at Haas (because they know that a lot of Haas students are from the southland) while McKinsey and other elite corps don't actively recruit USC.</p>
<p>-Cal's network is extremely impressive, and is world class. I've met a cabinet member from Asia while doing business who was from the same dorm at Cal. The fact is, Cal has always been an elite institution, so the people who graduated from Cal decades ago are very accomplished and present.</p>
<p>-Cal has a much nicer campus environment, Haas has great facilities, oak-panelled small classrooms with internet ports (wireless too) and outlets for laptops for every seat, nice building and a good cafeteria within the business school. It's downright luxurious...</p>
<p>-Cal is SoCal friendly; half of its student body is from the southland and it's a very laid back and chill environment despite being tops academically. You won't feel out of place there while at the same time having a whole new universe to explore and contribute to your personal growth, outlook and leadership potential.</p>
<p>Wow. For someone who's short on time, you've sure turned your sales pitch into quite a disquisition. Now let's break it down:
[quote]
It has a small-college intimate feel and a superb faculty that has great Haas school spirit and is very tight, friendly and approachable, in addition to being clearly superior to USC's faculty.
[/quote]
Haas' faculty is not "clearly better" than Marsall's. Find proof that it is and i'll believe you.
[quote]
The concept of USC/Marshall placement being superior to the one from Haas is pure urban myth.
[/quote]
We just went over this. I gave hard evidence of what USC has to offer by producing a list of recruiters, and you give your biased opinion. Again, produce evidence (like a cal's list) and i'll believe you.
[quote]
McKinsey doesn't even recruit at Marshall.
[/quote]
Congratulations, you found one firm that has already been discussed. You don't think there are companies out there that recruit at USC but not at Haas?
[quote]
Your chances of getting a top job and your spectrum of choices out of Haas is superior to that from USC.
[/quote]
Evidence evidence evidence. Notice a theme in your sales pitch?</p>
<p>It's hard to find undergrad business rankings. The USNWR one is premium, its free page only lists the top three, so it includes Haas but not USC...</p>
<p>Looking at the MBA programs (a lot of the MBA faculty at Cal teaches undergrads too, and the same is true at Marshall), here's a faculty ranking from the Economist magazine of the top 100 plus MBA programs. USC ranks #85, Haas #22 (kind of low for Haas, but our students tend to be critical.) In any case the gap is very, very wide there...</p>
<p>Here's another one, from the Financial Times' Global MBA ranking that has Haas at 16 in the world, and USC at #54. Notice that Haas fares significantly better in the placement category. Haas is at #16 in the world for "Employment and Career", while USC is at #54.</p>
<p>Here's a faculty ranking focusing on finance. It has Haas at #1, USC at #20, tied with 4 other schools (middle column.)
<a href="http://www.global-derivatives.com/schools/fin-rankings2003-04.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.global-derivatives.com/schools/fin-rankings2003-04.php</a></p>
<p>About firms recruiting: McKinsey is very significant because it's the most prestigious consulting firm. The fact that they don't even recruit at USC is quite damning. That also indicates that other top-flight companies have similar cut-offs. I don't think that there are national top-flight companies that recruit at USC but not at Haas. There probably are a handful regional firms that recruit at USC but not at Haas, but notice as well that Haas still does better than Marshall in terms of placing its graduates. Haas does get a lot of SoCal recruiters too.</p>
<p>FACT: Your school doesn't have to be on a recruitment list to be hired at a company.</p>
<p>I'm from seattle but I go to the University of Richmond, neither Mckinsey or Goldman Sachs recruit at our school, but we happen to send at least 4 kids every year to Goldman Sachs and at least 1 to McKinsey. </p>
<p>It is purely about your ability to market yourself. You should go to the school were you think you can better market your PERSONALITY, not your presitige of your degree because it means absolutely nothing in the general sense.</p>
<p>It's significantly easier to market yourself to McKinsey when you have the opportunity to talk with several recruiters, managers and alumni from your school who work there and are on your campus to recruit you... It's also common sense that those firms that have presentations and conduct interviews on their target campus will hire more students from those top schools. It's totally ludicrous to think that prestige and ranking of schools don't have a huge impact on the caliber of the companies recruiting.</p>
<p>Another link about the quality of the faculty at Haas:</p>
<p>"The {Financial Times} also rated Haas faculty members among the top 10 in the world for the fourth time in the last seven years. "</p>
<p>Calx, either you aren't from the west coast or you just really don't understand what is being said. </p>
<p>Out here it is a lot less elitist than the east coast, MUCH less. You can easily look at stanford and say "hey that's a great school" and it is far from elitist. It doesn't matter if you go to the university of washington, university of san francisco, or san diego state someone will hire you. </p>
<p>So what if the "worlds most prestigious" consulting firm doesn't go to USC, big deal, is that going to prevent JSR from attending a great MBA program because "gosh darn it, he didn't get the McKinsey job" the answer is NO.</p>
<p>prestige means little, personality means everything and undergraduate experience is what college should be about. if you are worried about a job before college, your experience will suck, no question about that.</p>
<p>JSR - Go to whatever undergraduate school you feel suites your personality best. They both offer different social scenes but both can provide you with great opportunites. In my opinion USC is best because it serves LA, along with UCLA, more than Berkeley, and CAL is probably second to Stanford in the San Francisco area. So just think about that and I hope this helped you decide.</p>
<p>
[quote]
It's hard to find undergrad business rankings. The USNWR one is premium, its free page only lists the top three, so it includes Haas but not USC...</p>
[/quote]
</a>
That's old news. I cited that fact ages ago, go check yourself. And it doesn't mention anything about faculty quality.
[quote]
Looking at the MBA programs (a lot of the MBA faculty at Cal teaches undergrads too, and the same is true at Marshall), here's a faculty ranking from the Economist magazine of the top 100 plus MBA programs. USC ranks #85, Haas #22 (kind of low for Haas, but our students tend to be critical.) In any case the gap is very, very wide there...</p>
<p>Here's another one, from the Financial Times' Global MBA ranking that has Haas at 16 in the world, and USC at #54. Notice that Haas fares significantly better in the placement category. Haas is at #16 in the world for "Employment and Career", while USC is at #54.</p>
<p>Here's a faculty ranking focusing on finance. It has Haas at #1, USC at #20, tied with 4 other schools (middle column.)
<a href="http://www.global-derivatives.com/s...ings2003-04.php%5B/url%5D">http://www.global-derivatives.com/s...ings2003-04.php</a></p>
<p>..."The {Financial Times} also rated Haas faculty members among the top 10 in the world for the fourth time in the last seven years. "</p>
[/quote]
</a>
The last i checked, the OP isn't deciding on which MBA program to matriculate to. You know why you only cited MBA references and not ug sources? I'll tell you why--because there isn't any evidence out there suggesting that haas UG faculty is "clearly superior" to marshall's. Even Businessweek gives marshall ug and haas ug the same grade for teaching quality. Now why would that be if Haas ug is "clearly superior"? </p>
<p>
[quote]
The fact that they don't even recruit at USC is quite damning. That also indicates that other top-flight companies have similar cut-offs. I don't think that there are national top-flight companies that recruit at USC but not at Haas.
[/quote]
Prove it. A list, an article, anything...</p>
<p>The fact that they don't even recruit at USC proves that one top firm out of many doesn't recruit here. It doesn't mean they don't hire SC grads. And like someone else said earlier, frankly your odds of getting hired at Mckinsey are slim to none, no matter what ug you went to.</p>
<p>
[quote]
About firms recruiting: McKinsey is very significant because it's the most prestigious consulting firm. The fact that they don't even recruit at USC is quite damning.
[/quote]
Correction: McKinsey does indeed recruit at USC. They are listed in USC's Interviewtrak.</p>
<p>Wait wait wait...I've got a novel idea:</p>
<p>How about you go to the school that has a better campus feel instead of worry about minute differences in funding or faculty ratings?</p>
<p>Or am I overly simplistic here?</p>
<p>I think you are a little simplistic because the quality of the faculty matters, and you are assuming that the differences in the quality of the faculty between Berkeley and USC is only minute. But campus feel is definitely a main factor, as is academic standing, prestige and reputation, as well as placement/recruiter quality, which is paramount for a professional major like business.</p>
<p>trojanman: a lot of the faculty that teaches MBAs at Haas also teaches undergraduates. So the MBA faculty ratings and the UG faculty ratings are closely connected. It's commmon sense. It's a bit disingenious for you to dismiss that connection. Most of the info about business schools out on the web and elsewhere is about MBAs, so that's what I've used. As well, the quality of the MBA program should not be dismissed altogether, as all UG programs do ride the coattails of their MBA program (see Wharton). The gap between the Haas MBA and the USC MBA is large.</p>
<p>We've seen earlier that the Boston Consutling Group (BCG) doesn't recruit at USC either. That's another top consulting employer who has recruited at Haas for decades but doesn't even recruit at USC:
<a href="http://www.bcg.com/careers/bcg_on_campus/AreaSelection/school_general.jsp?ID=949%5B/url%5D">http://www.bcg.com/careers/bcg_on_campus/AreaSelection/school_general.jsp?ID=949</a></p>
<p>But BCG likes Haas UGs:
<a href="http://www.bcg.com/careers/bcg_on_campus/AreaSelection/school_general.jsp?ID=864%5B/url%5D">http://www.bcg.com/careers/bcg_on_campus/AreaSelection/school_general.jsp?ID=864</a></p>
<p>McKinsey isn't on the list of USC recruiters (<a href="http://careers.usc.edu/students/ocr/recruiters.html%5B/url%5D">http://careers.usc.edu/students/ocr/recruiters.html</a>), which is staggering considering they have TWO offices in LA/OC. I actually searched for McKinsey events at USC's career website and didn't find any events sponsored for that firm on your campus between june 2003 and may 2006.</p>
<p>BCG also has an LA office. The fact that this other top consulting firm doesn't bother to recruit at USC is quite a damning testament to the true level of national pull of Marshall. They actually recruit at Cal Tech, and UCLA. Which confirms what I was saying earlier about the pecking order in terms of on-campus recruiting opportunities: Cal/Stanford, then UCLA, then USC.</p>
<p>Haas' list of top finance employers is also more extensive:
<a href="http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/careercenter/corplinks.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.haas.berkeley.edu/careercenter/corplinks.html</a></p>
<p>I think it's important to dispell the many myths about USC vs Haas:</p>
<p>1-the myth that USC's palcement is better. The fact is, there is no old-boy USC network at TOP companies like McKinsey or BCG, which have recruited from Berkeley for decades.</p>
<p>2-the myth that Haas would be an impersonal place devoid from school spirit. The opposite is true. It's a very tight place made up of the elite of the elite, with a fantastic and engaged faculty, great building/facilities and tight esprit de corps. Comparing Haas to UC Irvine is truly laughable.</p>
<p>3-the myth that Marshall has the same (or even similar) prestige as Haas in the highest levels of the business community, including in Southern California (McKinsey and BCG are top 5 consulting firms in LA too.)</p>
<p>4-the myth that USC's environment is nicer than Haas'. Haas has great facilities, and Berkeley is not a commuter school. Most students walk by million-dollar homes on their way to class if they don't live in the dorms (there are some dorms like Bowles right across from Haas.)</p>
<p>wow.. is this thread ever gonna end?</p>
<p>CALX: i think it'd be a great idea if you'd read some of the previous posts in this thread before posting another message. I'm really tired of having to repeat some of my old points for your sake and drag this issue out longer than it has.</p>
<p>About faculty quality: like i said, since the OP is considering ug biz school, wouldn't ug faculty sources be a better indication than MBA references? like the Businessweek grade i mentioned before?</p>
<p>About recruiting: first, the BCG links are OLD NEWS. Second, McKinsey DOES recruit at USC; it is listed in InterviewTrak (this is the third time it's been mentioned, there won't be a fourth). The "Who Recruits at USC" link is INCOMPLETE and OUTDATED, meaning not every company who recruits at USC is listed (like McKinsey).</p>
<p>The only thing not worthless in your last message is the link to Cal's recruitment list; everything else is either 1)OLD NEWS that everyone's tired of hearing or 2)your BIASED OPINION without legit backing</p>
<p>So the next time you post, try to say something meaningful, relevant, and not old news. Or else you won't get a response from me, YOU WILL BE IGNORED.</p>
<p>The list is currently published on the USC website and is from 2003-04, which isn't that old. McKinsey hasn't had any company presentations at USC between 2003 and June 2006, I actually did that search on the USC Placement site. This proves that their recruiting activities at USC are very limited (if they do recruit at all.)</p>
<p>If the OP or anyone has a premium subscription to USNWR, they should consult the UG business school faculty ratings. Barring this, MBA facutly ratings are a very good proxy for UG faculty quality since MBA faculty at Haas also teaches undergraduates. That's a concept that shouldn't be logically difficult to understand...</p>
<p>Why doesn't Lazard recruit at USC, despite having offices in LA?
<a href="http://www.lazard.com/careers/FA-NA-UG.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.lazard.com/careers/FA-NA-UG.html</a></p>
<p>That's another example of top firms (IBank here) putting their cutoff above USC, even those that are present in LA because many top employers don't perceive USC as being a top business school. You could go through the two lists of recruiters and find other national/global leading employers who hire from Haas but don't hire from USC.</p>