Accredited vs. Non-accredited Masters in Civil Engineering?

Graduate School
1

<p>I'm a recent graduate who has been looking for work for the past eight months without any luck; now I'm at a crossroads and possibly going back to school for another degree. Here's a little background on my dilemma:</p>

<p>I was that kid who loved going to school and was interested in everything growing up; I enjoyed art, writing, math, science... everything under the sun. With this eclectic group of interests I applied to some liberal arts schools for my undergraduate studies, as well as some technical schools. I didn't know what I wanted to study, but in the end I choose a very well known liberal arts institution because I felt I had more freedom there. It was a great decision for me, and I enjoyed the cross disciplinary approach gained by a liberal arts education; I felt my studies were enriched by understanding a field from multiple perspectives, and kept me open minded and constantly stimulated. By graduation I received two degrees: one in Physics and one in Architectural Studies, a non-accredited, non-professional degree. I was always creative, enjoyed art and design, but also loved math, understanding physical principles, and working with my hands. I saw physics as a great education; one which taught you how to think critical, develop incredible mathematical insight, and understand the natural laws of the universe; I too saw it as a bridge to higher education in engineering. I saw architecture as a beautiful way to implement this understanding and appreciation of physical laws and parameters through creative processes and designs; it was a great education that flexed your creative muscles, demanded you to be a problem solver and act as a voice for the people. I saw the architect (and the engineer) as something bigger than himself, assuming a role to help the public reinvent the spaces around them to better their communities, the environment and themselves.</p>

<p>After graduation I knew I wanted to become an architect and an engineer. I planned to take a few years off from school to get out into the field, gain some experience and save some money. I thought with my degrees I could at least get a draftsman position at a firm; I had plenty of studio work throughout my undergrad and helped design and construct a home for four; I know how to draft, and am familiar with different software programs; I'm qualified, or at least I thought. After hitting the pavement for the past eight months, I've found no work; constantly time and time again I've gotten feedback from interviewers, friends, and acquaintances including, "You've graduated at the wrong time kid" or "Oh? you don't have a professional degree? Sorry, can't help you."</p>

<p>I quickly realized I needed to get my M.Arch to get my career rolling, and have since applied to a number of programs for Fall 2013. Yet, after doing this, I'm not quite sure if it's the right decision to go back to school. On one hand I need the degree to be qualified to do what I want to do; on the other, after three more years of school I'll be graduated with this degree, in a ton of debt, and most likely the country is still feeling the impact of the recession, especially architects. If I graduate with this M.Arch I'll be in an applicant pool for a job not only with other recent graduates but with hundreds of well seasoned architects looking for work: that father of four with a mortgage and his own student loans. But also if I don't go back to architecture school now, because it's such a commitment (3 years as a full time student) I feel I will never go back. If I get a career, house, wife and kids down the road I can't just take a leave of absence for three years; that wouldn't be responsible.</p>

<p>Maybe getting an engineering degree would be a better path. I always wanted to get an engineering degree as well, but I had planned it would most likely be something to supplement my M.Arch. Pursuing it first I hope will allow me to gain a job quicker and start putting away some money for the future. With this new revelation I've been scourging the web looking for decent graduate civil engineering programs; I've found a few but have realized that they are all non-accredited degrees. It seems that most accredited civil engineering degrees are at an undergraduate level.</p>

<p>As a student with no previous engineering degree, if I earn this masters in civil engineering that's not accredited, how are my chances succeeding in the workforce? Would it be best trying to find an accredited program (I think the only one is at the University of Louisville)? Or should I just forget about civil engineering and pursue a mechanical engineering degree?
I feel like accreditation is more important for civil engineers and those who work with the public rather than other engineering fields.</p>

<p>Phew!!! That was a lot to say, sorry.</p>

2

<p>Let me start by saying good job looking into these details before you started. You are correct that civil engineers often have a greater need of becoming licensed than other disciplines. As for programs being accredited, most engineering programs (not just civil) are only accredited at the undergraduate level. The most important issue is which state you live in and which states you plan to practice engineering.</p>

<p>Every state board has specific requirements to sit for the Fundamentals of Engineering exam. Most will let you take the exam with a masters as long as the school offers accredited undergrad programs and you have taken certain coursework. Some states do not even require a degree with substantial work experience. Also of importance are requirements from other states you might want to work. Most states will accept PE qualifications from other states that are equally or harder to attain. In other words getting a license without a degree might limit your work options. In short you have a few steps to take:</p>

<ol>
<li>Check the requirements to sit for the FE exam from your state board.</li>
<li>Check requirements for other states you may want to work in.</li>
<li>Get your degree and pass the FE</li>
<li>Get required work experience (usually 4-5 years)</li>
<li>Pass the PE exam</li>
</ol>

<p>I think you can get by with the Master’s degree with maybe a little extra work on the side.</p>

<p>Source:
I’m an engineer.</p>

3

<p>Stategrad,</p>

<p>Thanks for taking the time to reply. I’ve looked into my state board’s (New York) licensure process and there’s a fantastic table close to the bottom of the page: [NYS</a> Professional Engineering:License Requirements](<a href=“http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/pels/pelic.htm#credits]NYS”>http://www.op.nysed.gov/prof/pels/pelic.htm#credits)
No information is included for Masters degrees but this table seems to be concerned with accreditation which as you’ve pointed out is generally only affixed to undergraduate degrees and programs. I think my next course of action is to call up the board and ask them to verify the weight my Masters degree would hold (on top of my non-accredited degree) when compared to others. It seems by this timeline if I just consider my undergraduate degree in physics it will be at least three years before I’d be able to sit for the FE exam. The question now proposed is: How likely would I be employed without taking the FE exam? Perhaps that three years of experience I seek, actually takes six years to complete, and this entire process then seems to continue to stretch and consume more time.</p>

<p>I’ve called a few professors from a number of colleges to pick their brain about my dilemma and a few of them suggested that actually seeking a BS or BE would be more beneficial. As an undergraduate student I most likely will receive more financial aid, cost per credit would be less and I could possibly finish the degree in 2 years. Going for this graduate degree, since I do not have an accredited degree in civil engineering most likely I’d need to take a number of undergraduate courses just to start my graduate work. These one year programs could then themselves stretch to 1 1/2 or 2 years, a similar amount of time.</p>

<p>If you don’t mind me asking: What do you think would be better? Pursuing a BS or BE OR a MS or ME?</p>

<p>Thanks!</p>

4

<p>Those are very interesting requirements. They have made the requirements somewhat convoluted. First I will try to assess what I’m seeing, then I will offer my opinion. </p>

<p>It appears NY requires 6 credits of combined education/work experience to sit for the FE exam and 12 for the PE. Based on the chart they grant an ABET engineering B.S. Eng. degree 8 credits. Architecture is granted 4 credits.</p>

<p>Options:

  1. Get 2 years of engineering experience with you Bachelors in Architecture to take the FE, then 6 additional years to take the PE. Total time = 8 years</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Get an engineering masters degree. You’ll want to verify this, but I think that would give you an additional 2 credits (+ the four for architecture) and qualify you for the FE. You might still need 6 years of experience for the PE. Total time = 7-8 years</p></li>
<li><p>Spend 2-4 years to get an ABET engineering bachelors to take the FE, then work in engineering for 4 years to take the PE. Total time = 6-8 years</p></li>
</ol>

<p>With that said you probably took many of the undergrad requirements to get into a masters program. The first step is to find out exactly how many credits the NY board will give you for an engineering masters degree. I am guessing 2 years credit but it could be more or less.</p>

<p>Even if the time appears shorter, I would not advise option 3. Spending 2-4 years for a second bachelors degree seems like a bad investment if you eventually want to practice architecture. Option 1 would be the easy option, but it will be hard to find engineering work with an architecture degree. My suggestion is to get the engineering masters degree so you have an advanced engineering knowledge as well as architecture. Then if you ever decide to get a masters in architecture you’ll have a bachelors degree with two masters degrees.</p>

<p>It all depends on what credit they give to a masters degree. They may attribute more to an ABET masters than non-ABET and it could cut out 2 years of work experience. If you can find out how they judge both types of masters degrees (how many credits) I can give better advice.</p>

5

<p>Sorry for the delayed reply; my time the past (almost month now) has gotten away from me somehow.</p>

<p>After our last conversation I called the NYS Board of Licensure and found that with a non-accredited non-ABET Masters Degree there is only 1 additional credit granted to you in that first education column. So the needed work experience actually grows by an additional year before I can sit for the PE exam. I didn’t ask about an accredited Masters because I won’t be pursuing one (only program I found was from the University of Louisville; not studying there, need to stay close to home to cut down on costs). I would suspect if someone did pursue an accredited masters it would be a full 8 credits just like the undergrad degree, because it would be earned in place of that degree; no one’s getting an accredited Masters if they already have an accredited undergrad.</p>

<p>Thank you for all your help and I think I do agree with you in that Option 2 that you’ve listed above is the best course of action. This way if my career course changes and I do tend to find myself gravitating towards architecture, I’ll already have a firm base in engineering with a masters none the less. I think I’m going to finish applying to a few more masters programs and see where it goes from there.</p>

6

<p>I just saw your posts today. I am a structural engineer. I worked with many architects for many years . Architecture and engineering are very different fields. To become a good architect you need yo have design talent. There is only very few architects in each firm who can actually do real design, many of them end up doing detail drafting and coordination for most of their career. architectural jobs is always in drastically up and down cycle.Civil or structural engineering is more stable. Unlike arch. ,it involves a lot of analysis, calculation ,theories. But for both fields, experience is much more important than advanced degree. I suggest you spending two years to pursue a civil BS, rather than a MS. Because most Ms program teach you analytical theories, not hands on practical knowledge that the job market needs. Without the training and knowledge from an accredited BS program, even you earn a MS, is less likely to find an engineering job. In fact, in this economy, a BS probably more likely to find a job than a MS, because the starting salary is lower. However, your pay will grow once you gain more experience and proof your production capability. Feel free to pm me if you have more questions. </p>

<p>Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I717 using Tapatalk 2</p>

7

<p>I am in the same situation as you archieng. I have a degree in Engineering Physics from Fordham University. My father is a foundation contractor and I would like to work with him and obtain a PE some day. I found an online program at University of North Dakota which is ABET. Work and complete this program and you will be right where you need to be. Of course getting actual work experience will be the challenge.</p>

8

<p>Is it possible to count concrete foundation work as experience for the PE test? Is construction experience accepted in order to become a PE?</p>

9

<p>You need to look at your state’s specific acceptable experience requirements. Generally I would say no, foundation and construction work will not count. Typically they want technical design work involving engineering and problem solving.</p>