Adcom's taking "Context" out of Context

Applying to College
21

<p>Yeah, just, no. </p>

<p>My son spent 3 years at a school that was in a very affluent area, with a lot of high-pressure, college prep stuff. His school, however, was none of those things. It was a very small charter, with no AP courses, about 3 EC clubs (one of which he started), very little college application assistance. He's also an EFC zero student, so based on your assessment, that should have made him and the other students incredibly advantaged when applying to colleges. </p>

<p>But, no. Yes, he did the most rigorous courses he had, and created EC's and took outside courses, but there's no substitute for having things like college admissions counselors who give a frick, or stable teaching staff. His school didn't offer the PSAT, so most students didn't take it. The college counselling process was literally "Pick a UC system school to apply to, and a CSU system school, and here are the applications for the local community college." He had a "college prep" course with his admissions counsellor that involved the students reading books aloud to the class, because the admissions counsellor felt that this was a valuable skill they would need in college. When he asked for help in applying to college a year early, that counsellor told him he should spent less time filling out applications, and more time doing the homework in her class. (Which involved writing up descriptions of local community colleges.) </p>

<p>Based on your assessment, having no AP's, no EC's, no awards, etc, should have made him an easy admit, especially given his 3.9 unweighted GPA and mid 700's on all the SAT's. But no, he was waitlisted at several schools, and not admitted to Stanford. He still got into his first and second choices -- Reed and Chicago -- but we didn't think for one minute that if he had applied to Ivies that he would have been some sort of glorious easy admit. </p>

<p>The reality is that students at schools with strong admissions support, AP's and other advanced coursework <em>do</em> have an advantage, and attempts to level the playing field only go so far.</p>

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<p>davnasca, that is not always the case. My family is from a poor background. Regardless, I attend a VERY competitive public high school.</p>

<p>I am very overworked and stressed out at my high school. There are students at the nearby high schools that have less homework (on many days, none). It's ridiculous. It's obviously not fair that sometimes the valedictorian of this school gets into a better school than the average student at my school, who probably does the same level of work, if not more.</p>

<p>I spoke with my counselor on this issue and he told me that he realizes that it is unfair to the students at our school -- especially the ones that aren't in the top 10% but aren't in the bottom, either. These "middle" students get screwed over, even though they are probably way more qualified than the "top 10%" at another school. It's not like the students at my school had 'less' obstacles. Some of them have to work part-time jobs over the summer or on weekends, babysitting several siblings and dealing with extreme pressure from their families. There are students here that have fought and struggled their way through life.</p>

<p>There are students overcoming obstacles at my school just as much as the kid who is avoiding drugs at the nearby high school is. Just because 'avoiding drugs' is not a big problem at our school does not mean that there aren't other issues. Some of the students experience so much stress that they have contemplated suicide. The counseling department and the Wellness Center has dealt with these students before.</p>

<p>So please, before assuming that people at competitive 'prep' schools don't have obstacles, check your facts. My school draws students from all different types of backgrounds and all ethnicities. They have faced unique circumstances to attend our schools. Students at other schools did not have to take the selective enrollment exam to attend 1 of 8 selective enrollment institutions in our city -- and if they were really that bright, would have been able to pass the exam (+ other factors, such as middle school grades, etc.) and gain admission into one of the elite high schools. There really are FEW reasons why they couldn't do this, as income is not a factor, and there are several locations.</p>

<p>If students from the crappy schools wanted to have a challenging education, they had a chance. I know this isn't true with all students, but it does hold true for most students in my city. Therefore, I do not have much sympathy for most of the students that wanted a good education but did not work to gain admission into one of the more challenging high schools.</p>

<p>There are greater expectations for students that have had more opportunities. Think about that -- there is less room for flaws, even if some of the students in these prep schools have faced similar, if not identical obstacles to the students in less affluent high schools.</p>

<p>Yes, students in less affluent schools have faced obstacles. But so have students from prep schools. Some of the so-called counseling in prep schools is a lot of favoritism (counselors giving the best advice to the top students and no one else, or suggesting an abundance of safety schools, etc.) Please remember that some of the self-advertised 'college prep' status of some schools is false, even the competitive public high schools have a hard time counseling students. Please remember that just as less affluent students face obstacles, so do students in the other extreme. There are students who feel like this is too much, that they're going to break down or that they want to kill themselves because their work is so hard.</p>

<p>Unless you've been in a prep school, these feelings might seem strange to you. But your peers, teachers, friends, everyone stresses academics.. so much so that it becomes too much for some students. Freshman year, I had many breakdowns because the workload was so difficult and I was placed into advanced classes because I had placed out of several basic classes. My peers were taking the basic math classes (Algebra, Geometry), but I began with Trigonometry. Some kids in other schools had easy as heck classes and I thought it was unfair. And to some extent, it IS unfair that students in these other schools get better GPAs. I recognize that their school has less resources.. but to a certain extent (and that is when I feel like these students are exploiting this). </p>

<p>Anyways, peace.</p>

23

<p>First of all murkywater, do you want to give that up? That was my issue. I know for a fact that you at your competitive public and trackstar at his prep have a harder time earning an A than I do at my small, rural public school. My issue was trackstar stating that your better off in a crappy school than a comparatively better one.</p>

<p>Secondly, while in many cities there are magnet schools and the like, there are not where I live. I live in rural NY (read: 300 mi from NYC bout 40 from nearest large city). At my small school there are ZERO APs. I have not had to try my hardest for an A my whole life. Some classes are a joke. I have exhausted my schools tracks in some ares. I take 9 classes a day in a 9 period schedule. You know what I want, an challenging education. I want to take AP courses. I want to be academically challenged. But, alas unless both my parents were to find new jobs, we were to sell our house and then win the lotto we couldn't move. Lets face it, I don't really have a chance at a different school, so I'm trying to make the best out of this one.</p>

<p>"And davnasca, to characterize us prep school kids as "lazy" is beyond ridciulous. Part of the reason it has become such a pressure cooker is because prep school kids have to do everything perfectly just to compete"</p>

<p>Don't worry trackstar I was really just referring to you as lazy, I'm sure many of your peers are thankful for their educations and don't want to trade them for a sub par one.</p>

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<p>BTW, TrinSF thanks for the example.</p>

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<p>I would never give it up. I feel that I have enriched my life with the courses I have taken at my high school, with classes I genuinely feel passionate about. That is more than about 90% of high school students can say. :)</p>

<p>davnasca, your achievements are taken into context. But do realize that while you want to be challenged, so do others in competitive environments. I only think it's fair to reward students who have worked hard for their grades, not for those who just got As in easy classes (you say you never had to work for an A; I have had to struggle for every B I have ever received -- should a college choose you over me based simply on grades? I don't think so!) If your classes were not challenging, there's community college. If not community college, then you can take up independent study and take APs anyways. You don't need to necessarily take an AP course to take the test. If you take the test and score a 5, then you have shown the same proficiency as someone in a difficult high school who has taken the same test and gotten a 5. Tests are standardized -- prove that you are up to the caliber that you say you are.</p>

<p>Not doing independent study, taking college classes, or taking AP tests without taking the class -- I'm sorry, but that does not show a desire to be challenged. If not those things, then there are many, many other options, including online courses, showing proficiency in SAT II subject tests, etc.</p>

<p>There are many options. Don't just say that you have 'no options'. Because clearly you do. If it means independently studying, then so be it. But sitting around and getting As in easy classes is not enough. Sorry :p</p>

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<p>
[quote]
murkywater: If students from the crappy schools wanted to have a challenging education, they had a chance. I know this isn't true with all students, but it does hold true for most students in my city.

[/quote]
Information like this is all part of context. Not taking advantage of an opportunity (such as deciding not to apply to one of the eight selective schools) or being academically unfit to attend one is completely different from not even having the opportunity to attend a different, more competitive school. Kudos to you and your classmates for your hard work and determination, even in the face of obstacles.</p>

<p>When I was applying to and deciding between a variety of public and private prep schools, I wanted a continuation of my intense middle school, which I loved. Then my family was forced to move because of unforeseeable and uncontrollable circumstances. After moving, my time spent on homework decreased by ~6 hours. I simply did not know what to do with myself, so I started reading a book a day, exploring OCW and pursuing similar activities. If I had not moved, I would have desperately hoped adcoms considered context. Part of the context of the prep environment is that it is hard, sometimes to the point of being ridiculous. Part of it is that there is insane competition and that chances are you could have been an academic superstar at any other high school in the district. I'm not saying colleges should ignore that; I just want them to recognize that others have been dealt a different hand and simply do not have access to the same educational setting.</p>

<p>** Edited to say: ** I completely agree with murkywater's latest post saying that students at rural/inner city/generally horrible schools do have options (OCW, CC, self-studying, EPGY, etc.) Students from these environments should not use their background as a ticket to college, but look at it as unfortunate and move on. While these options may not make it as challenging as a prep school, it is not a path for those with an aversion to work.....</p>

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<p>I have no way of getting to the local Comm. Coll. and found out about AP tests and self studying for them about a month ago, and was strongly discouraged from it by everyone. And I do challenge myself to the best of what I can. I am taking all of the honors courses at my school, have a full schedule, ect.</p>

<p>Yes I do think colleges should take students who were under challenged but have good grades (and ecs, and scores, ect.) because they obviously have potential. However, I do believe context should be taken into concideration. Obviously an A at your school is harder and your school transcript will reflect that. I have no problem with this, and it already happens. Schools recognize difficult schools and give that weighting and they also recognize under challenged students who deserve an opportunity. Like I said I have no problem with this. I have a problem with trackstar stating:</p>

<p>"If I had to do it over again, I would find the absolute worst public school in a 50 mile radius and go there for 4 years."</p>

<p>murkywater- I hope you get into the school of your choice, you seem like a bright, hardworking individual.</p>

<p>trackstar- I hope you get rejected from Harvard/Yale/Community College/wherever you applied to, go back to highschool in the Bronx/Detroit/South Central LA, subsequently get addicted to crack/heroine/meth, and then turn you life around and reapply to Harvard/Yale/Community College/wherever you applied to, play up the I'm a poor under privileged kid, get accepted and then complain about what a "pressure cooker" college is.</p>

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<p>Hey, murky, do they offer all that independent study for free where you live? Because my son has done that -- supplemented less challenging school options with outside study -- but you know, it's not free. You've said that disavantaged students should demonstrate they want challenge by doing community college classes, independent study, etc, but you haven't said how they're to afford it, and let me tell you, it's not easy. </p>

<p>In our case, I frequently have to choose between necessities and educational opportunities for my children. Even if the community college courses are free for HS students (and they are here), the books aren't. Even with a scholarship for EPGY, there's still materials costs. Oh, and of course, to use those things, we have to have a computer and internet access. We also have to have the support to <em>know</em> about those things, whereas most of the people you're talking about don't. </p>

<p>So what I'm saying is, "Well, you should just do these extra things" is a bit glib. If you're a student in that situation, that's <em>much</em> harder to accomplish than you can probably imagine from your point of view.</p>

29

<p>First off, just from reading these posts, I think that there is a general misunderstanding between those who go to private prep schools and those who go to poorer public schools. Unless anyone has had both experiences, I think it's going to be hard to come to an understanding of each other.</p>

<p>As a senior in a competitive private school, I cannot speak for public school kids. All I know is - and I think some people are missing the point here - is that I am getting a top-notch quality education. That's why my parents sent me to this school. They understand that it might be more difficult to get into top schools from my position, and they are okay with that.</p>

<p>I have lots of friends who have graduated from my school and are happily enjoying college (some at Ivies, some at top LACs, some at state school, some at smaller regional schools, and so on down the list). They all report that they entered college extremely prepared, and in particular, that their writing skills were blatantly more developed and refined than most of their classmates'. They felt very well prepared for the work thrown at them, and many claim that their college work is much easier than what we had in high school. Point being, we get a great education at my school.</p>

<p>In contrast, however, I have a friend who attended a nearby public school. He graduated first in his class of 900. He attended out very well-respected state school with a hefty scholarship, but dropped out after his first year because the work was too hard. He told me that he had felt behind his peers, and that his high school teachers had not prepared him for college-level work.</p>

<p>This might be an extreme case, but I am simply trying to bring attention to the fact that I - and I am guessing many others - attend and enjoy private school, with its opportunities and general affluency, because of the quality of the high school education we receive.</p>

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<p>And, I would hope to assume, that you aren't enough of an a$s to want to toss that education away. Hmm...?</p>

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<p>I would trade my crappy public school, for a private school where I could learn any day. </p>

<p>Waaaa, school is so hard, I get 4 hours of homework and then I have fencing practice. It sucks having money. Waaaaaa.</p>

<p>Stop *****ing and take it like a man, I'm sure if you were on the other side of the fence you would be complaining right now too.</p>

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<p>sharpie: Exactly. Most of the responses I have seen on this sound reasonable unless you've experienced the disadvantaged part. I'ved lived without a phone, using pay phones. I've lived without a car, having to take public transit, and limited in what I could do because transit didn't go there. My children have listened to me agonize over paying for school supplies or paying the bills. For most of their lives, my children have lived in a world where $5.00 was a substantial bit of pocket change (for me, they almost never have any money like that), and something that cost $20.00 or more had to be budgeted for a month in advance. If I wanted my son to have the textbook for his community college class, well, that was 60.00 (used) I had to come up with out of my budget. There have been times when I managed that only by selling personal belongings on eBay -- another luxury that needs a computer and net access, you know. </p>

<p>If you haven't had that experience -- rolling pennies to have enough money to buy school lunch for the next day, and things like that -- then you really can't speak knowledgably to the choices that families in that situation make.</p>

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<p>"Hey, murky, do they offer all that independent study for free where you live?"</p>

<p>What are you talking about? Independent study consists of going to the library, taking out a few books on a topic of choice and reading up on it. How does that even entail ANY cost at all?</p>

<p>And as for studying independently for an AP course.. there are some courses where you can get a 5 on the AP test simply by buying a $20 review book. It's not that hard, folks.</p>

<p>And yes, I do know both perspectives. I AM in public school, in one of the worst public school systems in the nation (Chicago Public Schools). I grew up in one of the worst middle schools in my area. </p>

<p>Sorry, but I do know both sides and I have to say that there is no reason why a person in a less affluent school cannot do independent study, or get a review book and study, or write research papers, apply for internships, etc. just like any other high school student in an elite high school. As for knowing about this stuff -- it takes a student's initiative to figure it out. If a student never spends any time going to the library, going to a computer and looking up stuff, well.. I don't feel any sympathy for that student for not knowing about the program.</p>

<p>And TrinSF, there are five people in my family. My sister is attending college. Neither of my parents work and our income is less than 24k (I get free lunch at school, which is rather rare in an affluent school like mine). Next year, it will be less than 20k because they will be losing SSI for me, and the year after that, even less because they will lose it for my brother, too. If you're wondering how I'm going to finance my college education, I ask the same.</p>

<p>Most of that goes to my dad's health bills. I do know what it is like to be in the "poorest of the poor". Because I AM poor. But I go to the top public high school in the state. It just took a little extra work on my part to find out special programs that offered me H.S. credit to get me into advanced high school classes and a lot of initiative. My parents really cared about getting me into a great high school, even if it meant paying up money for books. They went through a period of time where they rented out a part of the house to pay for my sister's tuition. If a student is really determined, it WILL happen. Even if they stay at a less affluent school, they might be able to challenge themselves outside of school in subjects that they are truly passionate about. Therefore, I do not know why so many people in crappy high schools, including my brother, raise complaints. My brother never did ANYTHING to research out programs or part-time jobs (I worked last summer) to get review books, etc. I think a majority of high school students in less affluent schools are JUST like him -- they do absolutely nothing about their circumstances. I have no sympathy for this.</p>

<p>So yes, it is possible. I know what it is like to live on a budget. But trust me, it is not a serious obstacle if careful planning is done.</p>

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<p>davnasca: "trackstar- I hope you get rejected from Harvard/Yale/Community College/wherever you applied"</p>

<p>You are a class act. I am so sorry to disappoint you but I have been accepted to and will be attending a U.S. News Top 10 national school. It wasn't my first choice although this thread is more about all those around me who have worked nearly as hard and are going to state school. </p>

<p>Once again, I don't want to toss away a good education but I don't think it did me any good for the price.</p>

35

<p>Trust me, you should not want to go to a crappy public ghetto school. Up until middle school I was in an amazing school system that opened so many doors to me. Then I was forced to move far away to, you guessed it, a crappy public ghetto school. I feel cheated; all of my amazing academic opportunities were thrown out the window. I dont study to get A's or even B's. I study to get 99's and 100's. Our school doesnt have limitless clubs. Besides the generic of the generic clubs, you have to make what you want to join, which is hard because you dont necessarily want to have to run like 20 clubs. Our school only offers like 4 APs, and while I can self-study, nothing can replace the indispensable resource of an actual teacher. Magnet/private schools are a blessing.</p>

36

<p>"Once again, I don't want to toss away a good education but I don't think it did me any good for the price."</p>

<p>Obviously Not.</p>

<p>I mean you only got into a top 10 school. And you know how to deal with the pressures of college. And you have a better, more in depth education. And your just better "prepped" all around.</p>

<p>So sorry for your waste of four years and thousands of dollars. And sorry that you lost your spot at your top choice school to some one who most likely deserves it. Not necessarily based on merit but based on the fact that they, unlike you, appreciate their opportunities and value an education as more than just as a stepping stone to college. Adcoms are pretty good at spotting fakes like you.</p>

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<p>So, the bottom line for me is that if you're posting to CC, then you already have more of a support network than some of the kids we're talking about. That is, you have internet access, computer skills, etc. Given that, you don't have the same experience as some of those students. And I don't think you can know what it's like, or judge the decisions someone else makes, unless you've lived in their shoes, so to speak.</p>

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<p>davnasca: "Adcoms are pretty good at spotting fakes like you."</p>

<p>Another classy comment. </p>

<p>Maybe when you get passed up by Gtown and UChicago next year, you will understand.</p>

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<p>Understand what?</p>

40

<p>Understand that maybe you should get off your high horse and stop judging people. When you see others get into schools that rejected you, you will realize that you can't just chalk it up to:</p>

<p>"based on the fact that they, unlike you, appreciate their opportunities and value an education" </p>

<p>You have quite a naive view of this whole process. In a year's time, it will be a lot more clear.</p>