Addressing the alleged "pre-professionalism"

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Pennsylvania
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<p>Hi all, first post here, so please forgive me if I break some tacit CC decorum.</p>

<p>From my extensive "research"(read: stalking CC, college prowler, etc) and asking a few current students, there seems to be a general consensus that Penn, and especially Wharton, has a definite and possibly smothering pre-professional atmosphere. As somebody applying ED to Wharton, these claims are giving me major qualms about my decision SUPER late in the game! While I do value that pre-professionalism--we are ultimately looking to get jobs after college, after all--I still would like to have intellectual conversations, not just networking! Being driven about your career certainly shouldn't be mutually exclusive with intellectual curiosity! At least, I hope. </p>

<p>Whether true or false or somewhere in between, I'd love to hear anything current Penn, especially Wharton, students have to say about the alleged "pre-professionalism."</p>

2

<p>Pretty sure this has been addressed already.</p>

<p>My comment, as an alum, is what the heck did you/previous posters expect from an Ivy League campus? And what exactly are you worried about - picking someone up at a party, and they leave their resume on your nightstand?</p>

<p>It’s an exaggeration. Visit the campus and find out. Or rule it out.</p>

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<p>Sorry for the repetitiveness. </p>

<p>I’ve visited the campus and sat in on two classes already. I was surprised and disappointed that I, the high school visitor, participated more and appeared more interested than the majority of students in both classes. Granted, it was a Friday morning (hungover from Thursday night?) and both classes were guest lectures (less conducive for discussion?) However, in contrast, when I ask friends who are currently students, they love Penn. Then I log onto CC and see dozens of Penn students complaining about their experience. </p>

<p>Between my own possibly skewed observations, my friends’ feedback, and the internet, I guess I’m just confused.</p>

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<p>Yes, hung over from Thursday night is my guess. Parties start on Wednesdays most weeks I was at Penn. That’s certainly not a sign of pre-professionalism taking over, is it?</p>

<p>There <em>are</em> some students who apply to a bunch of Ivies, because they are Ivies, and get into Penn and go there because they didn’t get into another one. Of course anyone who has not done due diligence would find things to complain about. The recent alums I’ve seen post here seemed pretty happy.</p>

<p>How many students were in the classes you sat in on? Stereotypical 100+ student classes don’t have much discussion, smaller classes (20 or fewer students) usually do and should.</p>

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<p>I don’t think that Penn has a very “intellectual” vibe in general, not that people aren’t smart and studious. It is just that the business, prelaw, premed, etc. atmosphere is very strong at Penn. However, you will be able to find your niche on campus. Even though a large percentage of people on campus are preprofessional doesn’t mean that people aren’t having intellectual conversations. I wouldn’t let this be a reason not to apply ED. Also, even though I think that visiting colleges is useful, I wouldn’t let a class or two where people weren’t really participating stop you from applying. You will definitely have those days when you don’t feel like talking in class and just want to go to sleep, especially on a Friday morning.</p>

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<p>The dirty little secret is all colleges are pre-professional. Unless you have no need or no intention to ever make money, buy a house, drive nice cars and wear nice clothes or to get married and have children and provide good stuff for them, all universities are pre-professional. There are just some that attempt to ignore reality and the outside world for 4 years and pretend that it’s all about academic stimulation and intellectual growth. </p>

<p>It’s fine, some people need those years in cocoon to arise from it different from when they went in to it.</p>

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<p>The large classes also have a recitation. Students usually ask their questions in the recitation section because they are broken up into small groups of students. </p>

<p>Certainly you will find some students who are unhappy at any college. However, in my experience, the students and alumni at Penn seem to be significantly happier than at most schools. That was an important factor in my daughter’s decision to attend Penn. She is there now, and very happy with her decision.</p>

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<p>I respect this conclusion, but would like to inquire what type of experience allows you to draw it. You must be a college advisory professional because most of the generally college-aware people I am familiar with do not know the student bodies of more than a couple of schools.</p>

<p>Or posed another way, how big is your universe of “most schools”? 10, 20, 100, 1,000? </p>

<p>By the way, how does one track and measure the happiness of alumni according to their respective alma mater? And you have experience or a data base for this among “most schools”!</p>

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<p>Lol, @‌Fenwaypark Are you a prosecutor by trade?</p>

<p>First, thank you for acknowledging that I am just giving my opinion. </p>

<p>Second, you are correct that I chose my words poorly in using the word “most.” I am aware that there are a bit over 4,000 colleges in the US and I have not surveyed most of them. lol</p>

<p>What we did.
As my D worked on narrowing her list of colleges, how happy students were and how Alumni felt about their experience in their college years was one of a few key criteria that she considered.</p>

<p>So specifically, we were assessing this in comparison to some of Penn’s peer institutions where she was considering applying and where she was accepted (she received 13 acceptances). </p>

<p>To assess this item, we did several things. First, D asked students how they liked the school at initial visits, and at accepted student days. Second, I know many graduates of the schools in question and asked the a lot of questions about the quality of their experiences. Third, we read through many online comments, both positive and negative about each school. </p>

<p>For example, current students from certain schools were more likely to express that they were learning a lot but seemed a bit distressed and overwhelmed. When asking their alumni about their experience there they were more likely to say that they were “glad they went to school there” and that “they learned a lot there.” In contrast, Penn students seemed less anxious overall, and the alumni were more likely to add comments like, “I loved it there!” and “If you choose Penn, you will be glad you did.” </p>

<p>The result of our non-scientific sampling that students and alumni from all of the schools she was considering believed that they received/were receiving an excellent education, but students/alumni at some schools sounded happier and expressed that they were enjoying their college years more than students at other schools. Comments from Penn students and Alumni were among the most positive overall. </p>

<p>Again, this was our assessment, and not scientific. If you have a different opinion that is fine, but I am willing to bet that we did more to assess it than 99% of candidates.</p>

<p>:smile: </p>

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<p>simple answer - don’t apply. I wouldn’t apply based on input from a bunch of strangers on an anomymous forum with these qualms of yours unless you are posing as applicant and have ulterior motives in starting this thread.</p>

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<p>First and foremost understand that if you desire to attend a school that is the top in the nation, say the top 25 to 30 schools you will be attending with smart, driven, impressive students. With that said I think Penn (again in my opinion) seems to have a knack for selecting those students with very outgoing personalities. That sometimes is mistaken for “pre-professionalism”. Make no mistake, you will have just as much competition for getting ahead at any of the top schools. My S attends PENN and while he often comments about his awe relative to the impressiveness of his fellow students he equally finds they are helpful, cooperative and kind. Smart people talk about smart things. You will find that anywhere. Go where you find you are most comfortable. Did you visit PENN and talk to any students in the Wharton school? If so and if you liked them you will be fine. :slight_smile: Good Luck to you.</p>

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<p>PS I didn’t mean to imply that there were no smart driven impressive students at any school but the concentration of them at the top schools tend to create the question the OP originally asked. Please be kind when you respond. :)</p>

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<p>@texaspg I am not posing as an applicant nor do I have ulterior motives. I don’t know why you seem so offended by my post. I just find that the responses by strangers on this anonymous forum are much more candid than the overtly positive ones I get when I ask happy current students or friends of mine that attend the school. </p>

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<p>There’s a difference between what I think most people think of when they hear pre-professionalism - which is overall seen as a negative term - and having a “genuine”, “intellectual” interest in subjects that are related to professional careers. The “pre-professional” is the person who has no interest in finance or business yet purses a career in finance or consulting, etc, because it is prestigious and pays well. The latter individual is really no different in my mind than someone who pursues philosophy or writing, just different strokes for different folks. Some people are interested in philosophy, and since philosophy has no “practical” use such an interest often leads to a career in academia; others are interested in investing, which has a practical use and hence usually leads to a professional career. </p>

<p>And you’ll encounter both types at Wharton as well as other elite schools. If you are the type of person who is actually interested in business, finance, etc, beyond just the prestige/pay of a career within those fields, then you will find others here in the same boat [and you can have plenty of great discussions about these subjects].</p>

<p>Of course, if your real interest is in philosophy and poetry and the like, then you shouldn’t be pursuing Wharton at all. If you only want <em>some exposure</em> to those subjects, there are plenty of related college classes you can take and they’re all open to Wharton students.</p>

<p>Bottom Line: There’s plenty of intellectual curiosity here if you find the right people [it’s true that there are plenty of pre-professional drones that go here], but the intellectual curiosity will be mostly focused around subjects like finance, investing, etc. Not Shakespeare and philosophy.</p>

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<p>@nc9715 Penn has a sizable and diverse student body. In general, students from all of the 4 undergraduate colleges are mixed together in the dorms. You will find some people like the ones you are worried about and you will find some that are just like you. It will just take a little time to find your peers.</p>