<p>“I am curious as to why there are some parents who think a policy that would expel a man after a drunken sexual encounter, but not a woman is a good policy.”</p>
<p>I think this policy is ridiculous! I have a daughter in college and a son who recently graduated. I have taught them both that it is their responsibility to not put themselves in a situation that compromises their judgement. It is as much my daughter’s responsibility as it is my son’s! In the situation above, I think it is wholly unfair to solely blame the boy involved. They both made the decision to drink in excess of their own free will. There is no indication that the girl was coerced into sex in any way, she just regretted a choice she made while both parties were impaired by alcohol. How in the world can anyone think it is just that the boy is responsible and should face consequences but not the girl! If my son were ever in this situation, I would hire the best lawyer money can buy and sue everyone involved!</p>
<p>Which is exactly why there would not be a knee jerk reaction by a college or university. Now that also doesn’t mean the college shouldn’t have support systems in place to help students file a police report, get to an emergency room, get whatever help they do want or need. And colleges should have clear guidelines what remediation IS in place - e.g. immediate transfer to a different dorm if requested, right to a campus investigation, protection from retaliation on campus and all those sorts of things. Most of that can be found on the college website. I looked at S1’s former college this week and they had an actual do-to list for women who were sexually assaulted and number 1 was call the police and number 2 was notify the Dean of Students.</p>
<p>All students are forbidden from consuming alcohol on campus so the scenario shouldn’t happen. If they break the rules and drink - I have no problem with holding the young man accountable. none. I think this does have to do with being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I think it is my son’s responsibility not to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. If he attends a workshop that cautions against mixing drinking and sex and spells out the consequences… he really has no excuse, does he? I don’t care if his partners are reckless. They aren’t my responsibility. I can only influence my own children. At least in theory.</p>
<p>If a woman filed charges of sexual assault with the police against one of my son’s I would be inclined to believe her and hire him a lawyer, hide in my bedroom and cry for a week or longer. If a woman did not “want” to file charges but wanted the college to boot my kiddo I’d hire a lawyer and be on the next plane with my husband to the campus.</p>
<p>And the son from a family from a family that does not have the financial resources to hire a top lawyer? It’s OK to ruin his reputation and perhaps even toss him in jail for years because he happened to have consensual sex with a young woman who later had regrets about their tryst?</p>
<p>I am not saying the boy should not be held accountable for breaking the rules. What I object to is that it is seemingly ok for a girl to drink excessively, which is against the rules, invite a boy to her room, drink more, engage in sexual intercourse that was not coerced, later regret it and claim she was raped because she was drunk therefore unable to give consent. The boy is then held responsible but the girl bares no responsibility for her poor decisions nor for breaking the rules. We need to expect both our sons and our daughters to be responsible for their behavior! The scenario presented is not a case of violence against women, it is a case of young women making poor choices, regretting the consequences of their actions and then placing the blame elsewhere. This is completely different than a guy forcing himself on an unwilling partner.</p>
<p>“And the son from a family from a family that does not have the financial resources to hire a top lawyer? It’s OK to ruin his reputation and perhaps even toss him in jail for years because he happened to have consensual sex with a young woman who later had regrets about their tryst?”</p>
<p>Absolutely not! None of it is OK, these types of policies should not be tolerated! And if these cases actually went through the legal system, I can’t imagine a conviction would be likely. I find it hard to believe that anyone thinks it is ok to expel a student under these circumstances, unless BOTH students receive the same punishment!</p>
<p>Don’t be so upset. Can women have sex without men? I mean assuming a heterosexual case. I am also assuimg men can report, too if they felt used.</p>
<p>I am looking at this not a matter of right or wrong rather what to do if the only thing you have is he said and she said assuming she says anything at all. How do you go from there? As far as schools make their definition of rape clear and proceed with care in applying their rule, it could be a progress.</p>
<p>Why do we have to take this to extremes? Wouldn’t you think most schools will first warn them and proceed with something lighter like suspension instead of expulsion?</p>
<p>First, it’s a hypothetical which may or may not happen frequently, rarely, whatever. It distracts. Moms get worried their sons are going to be falsely accused. Why? We think it likely or believable our sons will get drunk and have sex with an equally drunk young woman? And that she will then accuse him of rape? Did we (the women reading) do this in college? Did our female friends do this?</p>
<p>Second, white hetero middle or upper middle class males usually don’t have to worry about being disadvantaged by college disciplinary boards or the courts. Generally they are given the benefit of the doubt. It is, of course, possible to find some cases where this isn’t so. Sometimes in those cases, there has been a history of outrageous and unacceptable behavior which makes unfounded charges more believable. Overall though, I think my statement is true.</p>
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<p>Would it be possible and/or desirable to expel both for alcohol abuse?</p>
<p>edit: So if we mothers were to insist university rules forbidding underage and illegal drinking were enforced - we wouldn’t have to worry about our sons being falsely accused in the above scenario where two drunken students have sex and the young woman later claims rape? This could protect our sons?</p>
<p>“All students are forbidden from consuming alcohol on campus so the scenario shouldn’t happen. If they break the rules and drink - I have no problem with holding the young man accountable. none.”</p>
<p>I believe that these policies are very misguided. As misguided as to think that if any unfortunate event people from a certain ethnicity or race are guilty, while people from other ethnicity or races are not.</p>
<p>Suppose the following situation. People are forbidden to bring weapons to a certain place (say certain areas in an airport). Two kids drink at the airport lounge and want to play a prank by smuggling a knife from the bar inside the security area. They are detected by security. Only one (the one that looks like a terrorist or a violent person) is prosecuted and arrested. The other goes scott free.</p>
<p>Making one gender more responsible than the other is not different than making one race/ethnicity more responsible than the other.</p>
<p>Welcome to the world of worried moms. Now you know what it feels like if your kid is victimized at no fault of their own. I believe moms of daughters have been worried for a long time. Some of these girls weren’t even drunk when raped. Some were drugged before raped.</p>
<p>I doubt that if I were “in charge” I would recommend expulsion for either party. But I am curious whether I should read your “I have no problem with holding the young man accountable” as implying that you do not consider the young woman to be accountable. Is that the case? I think they are both accountable and that they should both be disciplined for violating whatever rules are in place, about which I assume they are both well aware. What that discipline should entail, I wouldn’t presume to say based on a hypothetical. I had a talk with my D just yesterday about policies at her college; suffice to say, these issues are discussed often and in many different venues at her small LAC, and I expect this is fairly typical. </p>
<p>I do think that the problem of unfounded reports of rape is less of a concern than the problem of rape itself. Having said that, I wonder about the numerous people who are technically violating the codes of conduct at their schools in this age when the new normal (at least at some schools) is not just “no means no” but also “sex is not consensual unless you get a direct, clear AFFIRMATIVE.” I’m not saying that’s not a good policy; I’m saying that it’s likely honored more in the breach than in the observance. That may be changing, but while it’s changing, what should colleges’ stance be regarding discipline? Zero tolerance? Not the way I’d go. </p>
<p>But let’s say someone could convince me that’s what makes sense. If zero tolerance is the way to go, then women need to be held accountable for any rules they violate, just as men do. </p>
<p>Let me be clear. Women do not bear responsibility if they are raped. But I hope no one here considers it “rape” if a woman regrets a drunken hook up the morning after, even when she invited the guy up to her room, poured him alcohol and never said anything to dissuade him (even if she also didn’t issue a verbal invitation). I am not being glib. I am glad the standards are changing, but while they are changing, it seems to me a bit of perspective is warranted.</p>
<p>And yes, there is an entire judicial system at the disposal for victims of crimes. I think the point here is that is seems incomprehensible that a university or college could/would expel one student in the two drunk young people scenario…and I don’t believe a university or college would do that in the two drunk students scenario. How do you DO that…OK you both broke the alcohol rules you both get 1 demerit point, OK X went to Y’s room, X gets one demerit point because X didn’t sleep in X’s own room, Y forgets to get X to say YES, YES, YES loud enough so roommates could hear or capturing it on his cell phone while he reaches for a condom so Y gets a demerit point. That’s 2 demerit’s for X and 2 demerits for Y but Y you are you are taller and weigh more so you get kicked out. I don’t think so. Silly scenario, but really there needs to be some compelling evidence or someone that can corroborate that one party or the other did something so grossly negligent that they deserve to be banished… or in other words something other than the last thing anyone saw was two inebriated people hanging onto each other and kissing and the next time they were seen was the morning when they both came stumbling out of the room.</p>
<p>No, it’s not as clean and provable as plagiarism which is why I think it’s not going to be very often when a college is going to kick a kid out for a drunk hookup with another drunk. So no, I’m not terribly worried about this as a mother of boys. I spend more time talking to them about drinking to excess, using a condom etc. Death and pregnancy I worry about. Being kicked out of college for drunk sex…not so much…unless they were so drunk they forgot the condom…sorry to be so flip</p>
<h1>72 - I am not sure I follow your reasoning. When we profile one race as potential terrorists at the airport (US?) we are disadvantaging minorities in the US. Minorities already have less power than those in the majority. Profiling is a further loss of power. right?</h1>
<p>White hetero males still hold the majority of power in our culture. They have undeserved advantages in many areas of life. It is not their fault. It is just a fact of life. I am not worried about them being at great risk for false charges of rape. False charges of rape against minority men, throughout the history of the US, are a different discussion. I am worried about women being raped on campus. Let’s remember the history of rape reporting and treatment in the courts. Or just recall comments in the news in recent weeks. By very important white hetero males.</p>
<p>Even on an elite college campus, I think white males hold more power than females. Not necessarily in individual cases, but overall. It is better than when I was in college in the 70s. It is way worse than we might have anticipated at that time.</p>
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<p>After poetgrl asked on another, similar thread what the mothers of sons were teaching, I’ve thought a lot about this.</p>
<p>As the mother of sons, whether the young woman should be held accountable is of little interest to me. I consider my son accountable. I am holding him a higher standard than “they were both at fault” In life, our kids will probably all have to deal with reckless friends. In my opinion it will be a mark of their character how they respond to these challenges. Best case scenario, I am going to teach him to never be in this situation. And to be protective of female friends and acquaintances and dorm mates who are reckless and do end up in this situation. Again, I acknowledge I am just very very lucky in my sons, at least so far. And I sincerely believe luck has more to do with parenting success than most of us like to admit, self included.</p>
<p>I am glad, alh, that you hold your sons to a higher standard. I would expect nothing less based on my experience with you on various threads! So I will say in response that I also hold my daughter to a higher standard, and I hope other mothers do the same. I hope that, among other things, they urge their daughters to be careful and thoughtful about the men with whom they associate. It is possible to tragically misjudge a person’s character. I know that. And it’s possible to fall prey through no fault of your own to the manipulations of evil people. But I think it’s possible most of the time to spot the young men whose mothers and fathers raised them to respect rather than devalue or objectify women. </p>
<p>It also helps a person’s judgment not to be drinking and judging at the same time. As far as the luck part goes, I have raised a child who knows that.</p>
<p>Thank you so much alh. You post gives me hope as most of the mothers of sons I know seem to be blind. Everything their boy does is wonderful. As long as he has decent grades, the parents feel lucky and praise him. I feel everyone is much more critical of young women.</p>
<p>Most of the mothers of sons I know hold their kids to a very high standard indeed. And the vast majority of the young men I know are good people, as well. It’s possible to take rape and sexual violence seriously without demonizing an entire gender. Or dissing their mothers!</p>
<p>Agree,absweetmarie, The tone against males (particulary “white hetero” ones) and their mothers by some posters is quite interesting. It is too bad there seems to be such a divide. We all care about and worry about our children, male and female. Sexual violence is terrible. Women bear the majority of it but men are not immune.</p>