<p>Moreover, I have a daughter and a son. You are confusing certain people’s objective stance on this matter as an attack on the entire female gender. I look at facts not someone’s emotional version of a horrific event which happened months before with loop holes I cannot dismiss.</p>
<p>I love and adore white hetero males: my husband, sons, brothers, etc.</p>
<p>They operate from a position of privilege so I am not worried about them being disadvantaged in society or on a college campus. College women, based on this thread and others, are living at a disadvantage on college campuses where rape is seen as a joke or not taken seriously. They are at greater risk of sexual violence than most males. Not all males. I have a gay son, so this is a concern to me. I get it. Instead of talking about how we change an unacceptable campus culture, we discuss whether young women are being held accountable enough for their risky behavior. This bothers me. I think we need to change campus atmosphere and the whole discussion. The only thing I personally can really do to impact all this is what I teach my sons. I tend to think mothers have a lot of power in society. Sometimes a lot of unused and undirected power. I am seeing a lot of that power used to impact gay rights at the present. I think we could change campus attitudes if we made a concerted effort.</p>
<p>What do you think?</p>
<p>…all students need to held accountable for the rules. If girls are drinking they are engaging in risky behavior - that is also technically criminal behavior (of a misdemeanor variety) if they are under 21 just like the males.</p>
<p>I am not referring to any posters in this thread or to rape. Just to a general attitude that more credit is given to young men for any achievements. I am not saying they are not good men just less is required to be praised than for young women in my experience. All I wanted to say is I am encouraged by mothers that are trying to hold their sons to a high standard. Perhaps that could just be a compliment to them. I certainly did intend to diss anyone just point out a tendency or blind spot in some mothers.</p>
<p>Just saw your new posts, alh. Again, thank you and wish I had your ability to explain my view in a post. I agree and am encouraged.</p>
<p>Moreover, I just haven’t noticed young men being given more credit for achievements than young women. Maybe I’ve missed it.
Young women ae more empowered all the time and that’s a good thing.</p>
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I am pretty sure there are parents out there who have as you said blind spots in regards to their children irrespective of their childrens gender not just limited to boys.</p>
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<p>And the only thing I can do to affect things is to teach my daughter how to advocate for herself (oh, maybe I can sneak in a few lessons for my BF’s boys, but they are very well mothered already ;)). I really do appreciate your efforts and the efforts of other parents of boys. But I also think that changing the culture has to involve encouraging young women to seize the power they have. Like the power to choose the men they associate with, and the power to remove alcohol from the equation while making those choices. The power to say no to sex. The power to say yes. The power to recognize their accountability in all situations, even in situations where they have been wronged, even criminally wronged. The power to avoid parties given by organizations with a history of degrading women. The power to report sexual crime when it occurs. </p>
<p>I understand what you are saying about the position of privilege enjoyed by heterosexual men. But I know my daughter would bristle at any suggestion that she shouldn’t be substantially responsible for claiming some of that power and privilege for herself.</p>
<p>You are absolutely right absweetmarie. For example, if all the young women on campus got together and decided to boycott the fraternities with bad reputations, I bet those young men would change pretty quickly. No more scary parties. Why doesn’t this happen? </p>
<p>And in the news today:
[California</a> high school under fire after student-run ?Fantasy Slut League? uncovered; boys rated, ‘drafted’ unsuspecting girls for sex acts - NY Daily News](<a href=“National News - New York Daily News”>California high school under fire after student-run ‘Fantasy Slut League’ uncovered; boys rated, 'drafted' unsuspecting girls for sex acts)</p>
<p>Why didn’t these high school girls refuse to have anything to do with the boys who participated in this activity? Then it wouldn’t have been a problem or issue?</p>
<p>I would love to see young women on college campuses (and in high schools) use their power to end the sort of unacceptable behaviors discussed on these threads. Why hasn’t that happened? </p>
<p>Why didn’t my generation already accomplish it? So your daughter doesn’t have to do it? What stopped us?</p>
<p>Can we help them accomplish it now? If so, how can we best help or support?</p>
<p>edit: comments on the various news sites about the fantasy slut league indicate many students, including many female students, knew about the competition.</p>
<p>At #76:
What the fact that one gender has more/less advantages in life has to do with this issue?
The issue is: without clear evidence, should one gender be always presumed guilty while the other is not?
Assuming lack of clear evidence, what is the reason to presume that one gender is more “guilty” than the other. Statistics? Be careful about that, because if that were the case, one could use statiscis as a valid reason to rule that, without clear evidence, people of certain ethnicity/race is more likely to be “guilty” than others.</p>
<p>And to expand on your argument, some ethnicity/races had disadvantage in the pass. Should we now give people of disadvantaged ethnicities/races the power to make a claim without clear evidence?
Suppose the following: An URM and his/her friend drink at the bar. When the bar close, they somewhat end up going to the URM person’s house without an explicit invitation. They happily continue socializing at the house for some time (watching TV until the buzz wears off). Then the friend lives the URM’s house. Five months later, the URM person thinks that it was a private property trespassing and accuses his/her friend: he/she was never explicitly invited to watch TV at the house… they just kind of did it. The court says that the friend is guilty of trespassing even without any evidence. The reason is that because the friends’ race/ethnicity had advantages in the past (or stil has advantages today), it should be presumed to be guilty.</p>
<p>These examples are extreme, but they show what can happen when we replace the “presumption of innocence” with the “presumption of guilt”.</p>
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<p>Well, based on the link I posted regarding the Fantasy Slut League (post #54), I think one of the main reasons is according to the Principal, Participation often involved . social demands to be popular."</p>
<p>apologies Krlilies - I should have followed up on your link, which you posted first. I’m reading various anti-women stories on various news sites while posting on this thread and got confused. I don’t guess I really have anything else to add though. Already posted way too much.</p>
<p>In post # 26 of this thread the following was posted:</p>
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<p>The post linked to another thread which stated the following:</p>
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<p>Those of you who are pointing out that this won’t happen should realize that at least one parent on CC has stated that is has already happened.</p>
<p>I can’t wrap my arms around why this is considered a GOOD policy (as stated in post #26). I can’t believe that more people are not OUTRAGED by such a policy. It doesn’t matter if someone thinks it would be rarely enforced, the rule itself is immoral.</p>
<p>Whether a white guy has some real or perceived advantage does not play into the wrongheadedness of this policy. Drunken sex is not rape just because white men have traditionally held more power than women and minorities. Whether men are overly recognized for their achievements is likewise not relevant to this argument.</p>
<p>As far as what mothers of sons are teaching our sons I can honestly say that I do not know any parents of sons who teach their sons to just take sex whenever they want it with no thought of the woman. I can honestly say that I do not know a single parent of sons (mine are 18, 16,13) who teach them to be depraved when it comes to sex.</p>
<p>As far as I know consuming alcohol is permitted in the vast majority of colleges in the US as long as the consumer is over 21. I am pretty sure that being drunk is not a crime. However, it is irrelevant to this discussion. If two people are drunk neither can give consent. A college needs to treat them the same if they committed the same infraction.</p>
<p>Let me get this straight. A boy who is drunk is nonetheless supposed to be able to accurately gauge the level of inebriation of the girl who says “yes” and determine whether or not it is a valid "yes??? She is automatically deemed incapacitated from rational decision making, but he never is? This is truly through-the-looking-glass stuff.</p>
<p>^^As a mother of sons, and hopefully young men that were raised not to harm other boys or girls, I don’t disagree with you proudpatriot. It’s simply that the quoted post from the other thread is anecdotal. No college named. We don’t know anything about the situation other than secondhand. I simply do not believe that anyone has come up with a college where the policies are that transparent or that anti-male and I do not believe that any college would engage in such legally risky practices. Rape and sexual assault are horrible, but let’s face it life is not always so clean and easy to compartmentalize. It’s possible that a college like Liberty or Bob Jones might have such a policy, but I haven’t taken the time to go look at those handbooks (if they are on-line.) I can see from looking at the policies at my kids’ colleges that the disciplinary process for sexual assault charges can include suspension and expulsion. But it says that for plagiarism and any number of violations noted in the handbook. So yes, colleges leave the proverbial door open to dismiss a student but I do not believe any college would do so in a willy-nilly fashion.</p>
<p>What seems very “through the looking glass” to me is the fact that what some people on this thread are most outraged about is the mythological situation in which one boy may or may not have been kicked out of college and not about the thousands of young women who are sexually asualted and raped every year on college campuses. </p>
<p>This is what has you upset???</p>
<p>Are you so worried your son is going to drunkenly mistake a comatose or passed out woman’s response for an enthusiastic “yes?” </p>
<p>Man, we really need some better sex ed for boys in this country if they can’t tell the difference between drunken compliance and arousal. </p>
<p>You do realize, or probably not, that only 1/3 of women who report being raped were also inebriated at the time, and of those 1/3 some were drugged?</p>
<p>Some of you should really examine your heads and hearts if your biggest concern in this matter is for some remote possibility and not for the many young woman who have been raped and had their sex lives and intimacy destroyed for years, if not for a lifetime. </p>
<p>Thank you to the rest of those mothers of sons out there. The rest of you? I hope you know you are not immune to sexual assault just because you are older. </p>
<p>[Sexual</a> Assault on Campus | The Center for Public Integrity](<a href=“http://www.publicintegrity.org/accountability/education/sexual-assault-campus]Sexual”>http://www.publicintegrity.org/accountability/education/sexual-assault-campus)</p>
<p>Also, just for a reality check: upwards of 80% of those in prison are in prison for crimes they committed while they were drunk. If your son gets drunk and murders or assualts (not sexual, think fist fight) another drunk? He is still going to be charged with a crime.</p>
<p>I’m not clear why you think that it is okay to have non-consensual sex with a drunk woman but not okay to murder or rob a drunk person at knifepoint when you are also drunk. </p>
<p>Some of this conversation is really rather odd on here, and I hope it’s not the way you are talking to your sons. There is no crime in which inebriation is considered a mitigating circumstance.</p>
<p>Poetgrl:
Look at some of the things that were posted on this thread:
“White hetero males still hold the majority of power in our culture. They have undeserved advantages in many areas of life. It is not their fault. It is just a fact of life. I am not worried about them being at great risk for false charges of rape. False charges of rape against minority men, throughout the history of the US, are a different discussion. I am worried about women being raped on campus.”</p>
<p>Why can’t a person be concerned about both issues: “women who are sexually asualted and raped every year on college campuses” and “false charges of rape”?</p>
<p>Being concerned with the first issue with no regards at all to the second issue is a slippery slope. The “presumption of innocence” should be equally applied to everyone, regarding of gender, ethnicity, age, race, religious beliefs, orientation, etc. according to the Equal Protection Clause of the constitution. </p>
<p>I am in complete agreement with protecting women against sexual assault and rape. In fact, I have a daughter who is in college right now and I sincerely hope the college and the community around her are taking measures to keep her safe. I am in favor of many different measures to protect her, but I am not in favor yet to get rid of the Equal Protection Clause of the Constitution and the Presumption of Innocence principle.</p>
<p>I simply find, on CC, a preponderance of concern for men falsely accused of rape, compared with the concern with women who are raped. </p>
<p>I believe in innocent until proven guilty.</p>
<p>But, it’s exhausting to hear people go on endlessly about the unfairness of a policy which I’ve never even heard leading to the expulsion of a student, so far. It’s distracting from the real issue, which is that our college campuses are not safe for women, nor are their dorms. And, I’m not talking about drunk girls, who comprise 1/3 of reported rapes, I’m talking about the rest of them AND drunk girls.</p>
<p>It is possible to be concerned about all of this, poetgrl. To be concerned about the possibility of someone being unjustly accused is not the same as NOT caring about women being raped. I do not think anyone is talking about someone not being able to discern that a “comatose” woman is capable of consenting to sex. I do think that it’s reasonable to wonder how sexual misconduct policies are applied in this day and age when, as I said earlier, the new normal is much stricter, to the point that an inebriated person could be found guilty of sexual misconduct simply for having sex with another drunken person. How those policies are applied is of interest to me. </p>
<p>There is no need to question people’s “heads and hearts” just because they choose to keep all of these concerns in their brains at the same time. I do not condone sexual assault. Do I need to say that every time I make a post?</p>
<p>Personally I still believe and will always believe is that it is essential to report. To me that means the police. It creates a record and creates a documentation of investigation. Secondly, every college should have a process that is understandable and transparent to handle complaints. Clearly colleges and universities are not in the business of prosecuting criminal activity and sexual assault is a criminal activity. I’m on record of saying that concept is worrisome to me. The argument surrounding the Title IX language and FERPA will hopefully bring some clarity to the situation allowing better developed procedures and processes to emerge. But it starts with reporting. </p>
<p>And like Pizza says, it starts even before that with personal safety. I’ve said before that campuses can lull students into a very real false sense of security whether they are coming from a sheltered background or not. This holds for both men and women. I know well a young man who was intoxicated heading the two blocks back to the dorm in a sleepy little college town and was mugged. But the concept that there is a rush to judgement by colleges is simply not founded, quite the opposite most reports indicate that it is quite the opposite.</p>