admissions

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
21

<p>Is helping people the ONLY reason? Of course not. No decision is ever reached purely on the basis of one factor. </p>

<p>And you're right, there are plenty of positions in medicine in which, after medical school and maybe an internship year, you don't have to have any patient interaction - radiology and pathology certainly come to mind. But most people, even then, at least like the idea of helping others even if they don't necessarily enjoy interacting with them. And I don't have a problem with you hoping to enter one of those fields, if that's the way you feel. I have friends who made it their goal not to touch a single patient their fourth year of medical school. I get it.</p>

<p>BUT you don't want to enter one of those fields that require an MD. You've explicitly said that you want to go to a field that has multiple routes, and you're tacking on the MD simply because of money. That you don't care about the patients, and that ideally you'll be doing nothing but research. And to that, I have to take issue. Why take the spot of someone who wants it to do something that requires an MD? Why enter a field that you find such fault in? Why enter a field in which you disagree with the way it selects its members? Why not take the most direct route? Why not save yourself the hassle of having to deal with patients at all? </p>

<p>And just because I do enjoy talking with patients, doesn't mean that I like ALL my patients. There are always going to be patients (or their parents/family members) that will annoy, irritate or frustrate me, BUT, there are equal numbers that are an absolute joy to be a part of their lives - even if, at this point of my career it's only for an hour or a week.</p>

<p>Does that make me noble? I don't think so. If anything going into a field where there is a high social interaction because you like social interaction is selfish reasoning. And certainly at this point, I frequently make note of the financial situation I've found myself in - I'm so far in debt that I can't be anything other than a doctor at this point. And money is one reason why I'm leaning towards Peds Cardio instead of a medical genetics fellowship. But I can make those sorts of money decisions, because I'm already going to be a doctor. </p>

<p>In the end, your goals, your attitude and your interests seem out of alignment and you'd be a lot happier doing something else.</p>

<p>I think you'd be a lot better getting a PhD in something like pharmaceutical chemistry. One of my friends is married to a guy doing that, and he's getting quarters stuffed up his nose to move to places all over the country. It's science, and money. Stay away from medical school.</p>

22

<p>The fact that your goal seems to be to become a doctor and have the predetermined goal to never patients is one of more bizarre things I've ever heard on this board. The idea that you can get ahead in research faster by pursuing an MD/Phd rather than a straight Phd is completely ill-informed. In addition to having your research development retarded by a number of years by the clinical training you seem to think of as either a waste of time or solely as a means to make money, it is widely recognized that the quality of research that one conducts in order to earn their PhD in a combined program is held to a lesser standard than in a pure PhD one. It is true that you may be able to move more fluidly between the clinical and laboratory arenas, but it seems clear to me that you have no interest in the former, so why bother? Becoming an MD does not ensure that you're going to make a lot of money, especially is academia is your goal, so the notion that having those extra letters gets you something automatically is naive at best.</p>

<p>Judging by your posts, it seems to me that your concern lies far less with thinking the system is unfair or overvalues personal skills (a silly idea in and of itself) and more with the thought that maybe the system isn't tailor-made in a way that you can easily exploit (through undergrad institution prestige, test scores, connections) and that may in fact be detrimental to you as an applicant (by caring about personal skills). If this is of such great concern to you then it should already be apparent that the system is working to weed you out as an applicant - that according to the criteria in place, you'd be a crappy doctor.</p>

<p>Given your emphasis on your undergrad institution and the sense of entitlement you get from it (we'll ignore for a minute the fact that most of the people lecturing you on this thread went to institutions of at least equal prestige to the one you currently attend), it also seems to me that you are somehow attached to the 'prestige' factor of the MD. Even though you really have no desire to make use of it you want to be able to call yourself doctor and have people respect you. This is not only a recipe for disaster, it speaks to a shocking lack of maturity and intellectual independence. </p>

<p>The fact that you have been belittling people essentially for being involved in the very profession you ostensibly wish to pursue rings with an incredible dissonance. I really think you need to sit and evaluate what you want to do with your life. If you're truly not happy with the path you're in the process of pursuing, that is likely the source of the frustration we're seeing here.</p>

23

<p>as an aside, your comments about bastardized science and all that (for surely there is something wrong with science that has a tangible benefit) remind me a lot of what the one biochem prof I know says, just a thought</p>

24

<p>BDM, BRM,</p>

<p>The OP appears to be a soph who transferred from U. Iowa to Columbia SEAS this fall, and already looking for ways to get from SEAS to the main undergrad program. </p>

<p>P reepa, did I get that right?</p>

<p>If so, IMHO you might spend more time doing well and listening to others than searching for an "angle".</p>

<p>Regarding why schools don't give enough respect to students of top 10 schools, tell me why they should? Just because someone BSd their way past admissions? For every star at Columbia, I suspect there's as good a star at a state Uni. And maybe the star at the state uni deserves more because they were not offered every advantage that the "top ten" kids get.</p>

25

<p>actually, you missed a few details in there newmassdad. it's easy to look up my search history but it's a bit harder to contxtualize it. i've never put down my original undergrad. institution on CC and i don't intend to. i will say that i took summer classes at another institution (u. iowa) but never explicitly attended for an academic year. and i'm also looking to do a dual degree program here at CU. </p>

<p>phillysaser brought up a whole bunch of points that are on the money about how i feel with my future career choice. in reality, i have no idea what i want to do with my life...medicine has just been pushed upon me. thus, i am trying to find a way to game the system so i can do what i really want, which is research. i only emphasize my current undergrad instutution because i'm of the opinion that it should get me somewhere.... maybe i'm in a state of denial...who knows...but i think the bottom line is that i'm probably going to become a doctor due to various social and economic factor, and i guess i'll have to settle with what i get. fair enough?</p>

26

<p>Geesh, with baggage like you have "i have no idea what i want to do with my life...medicine has just been pushed upon me.", I do not envy you.</p>

27

<p>If you want to work in the pharmaceutical industry, I suggest getting a phD instead of an MD/phD. I myself will like to receive an MD/PHD and enter the academic field of medicine and possibly the industry. I asked my dad, who has been an employee for Merck for 25 years on the status of MD/PHDs at Merck thinking that he would know since he's at the main research facility at West Point, PA. He said that MD/PHDs are not in high demand at least at Merck. He told me that if I wanted to work in the pharmaceutical industry that I should receive a PHD in either Chemical Engineering, Analytical Chemistry, or Organic Chemistry. He said that computers are the ones that figure out what chemicals might help treat certain diseases. He said that only a few MDs are needed at Merck because they don't need a massive department to run clinical studies. He said that an MD/MBA might be better than the plain MD or other dual degrees if you want to work in the pharmaceutical industry.</p>

<p>I think its very unfair to give student from top schools in the country a "distinct" advantage in medical school admissions. There are definitely quality and superior students at state universities as well. The top state schools have just as quality resources as the top 20 schools. How can you discriminate a student because he or she attended their state institutions for reasons such as saving money or distance (I chose PSU because I didn't want to go across the country to WashU, Northwestern, or Caltech)</p>

28

<p>I have met a number of people like p reepa: "pushed into medicine" by familial pressures etc.. most, but not all, were students of asian or Indian descent with first generatiom immigrant parents who want their children to succeed in american society at all costs and obtaining an MD satisfies their needs in that regard. I have always tried to understand that mindset and pressure even though it is quite foreign to me(a classic WASP with relatively privileged upbringing brought up in a noblesse oblige tradition). I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt in this regard, as he must be under tremendous pressure to pursue something this difficult despite not really wanting it(MD). But at some point, he must take charge of his own destiny, and not live to please others.</p>

29

<p>look, aznsnake i'm not discriminating against people from state universities. in other admissions processes, however, students from top schools are given the benefit of the doubt, which is why i'm uneasy about the med school process.</p>

<p>and hubbellgardner, you're right on the money.</p>

30

<p>To calm down a bit. I do think you are missing the point of most of these posts.</p>

<p>
[quote]
fact that a candidate coming from a top school with lots of research, volunteering, high mcats + gpa can still be rejected from a top medical school because they lack certain subjective personality traits.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Because top medical schools have so many applications like this that they cannot possibly take them all. And that is even before the consider students from other-than-top colleges who also have high mcat's and gpa. So most of those top students will be rejected. Simple math.</p>

<p>It will be a bad idea to go to medical school if you really dislike dealing with patients that much. First of all, you may find that the level of patient contact in medical school may be more than you can tolerate. Secondly, you will certainly do poorly in your clinical work (which is more than half of medical school) if you cannot bring yourself to be at least somewhat enthusiastic about it. Finally, what is the point? If you really want to make the most of your MD, you need not only a degree, but you need to train clinically. More patient contact, all day long, for years. True you could avoid patients by going into pathology or radiology (although the latter does involve some non-optional patient contact). But you will still be doing clinical work. If you don't like it, why do it? </p>

<p>If you do not do clinical training, then you will be paid as a researcher. Those high medical salaries are for people who do clinical work.</p>

<p>Most doctors really love practicing medicine. In spite of all the challenges and disappointments, very few want to change careers. So the system works to provide rewards for people with this attachment to the field. If you really do not want to practice medicine, then you are going to hate medical school and loathe clinical training.</p>

<p>If you just want to do research, then get a PhD, where your career goals fit with the mission of the programs.</p>

<p>Admissions to PhD programs do tend to focus on potential for research. Grades and GRE's count for something, but not all that much. Medical schools are looking for people who really want to be doctors, which is different than wanting a PhD. </p>

<p>Please understand that you are a classic example of why they value these subjective evaluations. No one will admit you to their medical school if they believe that what you are saying here really reflects your attitude. I suspect you are just venting due to the pressures and frustrations of the premed life. At least I hope so.</p>

31

<p>there was a point in time when i actually thought clinical work was the best fit for me. i shadowed doctors and volunteered in clinical settings and i felt like i could actually become a practicing physician. i guess i realized that i was more interested in the science behind medicine and i actually wanted to cure disease rather than treat it. i also felt like i would be easily become bored of seeing patients for the rest of my career. then i talked to phd's in the labs i've worked at who seemed to share the mentality that doctors are essentially pseudo-scientists. i seemed to like the phd option at that point. then i talked to my parents, who have especially been pressuring me to become a doctor (md) because they know the frustrations that come with phd life, namely the low salary. now i'm stuck in this situation; i don't really want to see patients and i would do research, except i can't because...i just can't (there's really no better explanation for this).</p>

<p>i guess i am venting due to the pressures of premed life, but it's not because i'm doing badly in my courses or anything. it's just because i don't know how to approach this whole situation. therefore, i apologize for ridiculing brm, bdm, and most everyone else on this forum. now that i've read all your posts, i definitely have a lot to think about at the moment. it seems like i will eventually have to suck it up and do something i don't particularly enjoy for a career.</p>

32

<p>Show your parents the economics thread. If you'd like me to explain anything to them, I'm more than happy to.</p>

<p>Trust me. I understand Asian families.</p>

33

<p>I'm serious about the PhD in Pharmaceutical Chemistry. My friend's husband is literally having money thrown at him.</p>

<p>Other options certainly include looking into getting a PharmD and going into industry...</p>

34

<p>phd life doesn't mean you have a crappy salary. You don't have to worry about tuition because you will get a nice stipend. My dad tells me that the starting salary for phds at merck is almost 100K with dental, retirement, and medical insurance packages.</p>

<p>In addition, phd programs more analyze potential and talent. Its much easier to get into a top phd program than a top medical school. My friend got a 3.1 at ECE at Carnegie Mellon and is getting his phd at Stanford. Plus getting a phd is much less stressful and time consuming as getting an MD.</p>

35

<p>p reepa, I totally understand your situation.</p>

<p>I had/have family pressure bearing down on me from all directions via my wonderful jewish family.</p>

<p>I had them all excited about the possibility of an MD. About a month or two ago I decided that a PhD in biology is the route for me. I decided to let my family know about the switch in a careful manner. I recently told my mom that medicine wasn't my sole interest anymore, that I was also considering the PhD route (in a type of biology quite different than biomedical sciences or something of that sort--probably zoology/animal behavior). Now, i told her this, knowing full well that I no longer have any plans to go into medicine-but I decided to burst my family's bubble gradually.</p>

<p>There are ways to go about this, and you can at least make a convincing argument to your parents if you really don't want to go to medical school. Ex- Medical school is a huge investment that will probably put you something like 200k in the hole, right off the bat (anyone feel free to correct that number). I think it helped for me to explain to my mom that most often in the sciences, your tuition is funded and you recieve a stipend for living that is probably in the 20-30k range.</p>

<p>Also, don't assume that a PhD comes with a crappy salary. There are jobs in the government/industry as well as academia that easily pay enough to make a nice living.</p>

36

<p>I know a lot of parents who would be overjoyed if their kids had the ambition to pursue a phD. Only with Asian parents, I guess, is a phD not good enough.</p>

37

<p>don't forget jewish families as well^^</p>

38

<p>Come on NCG. Many of us Asian parents are PhD ourselves. We absolutely do not put it down. Often, we do want our kids to do as well if not better than us.</p>

<p>P Reepa, From your posts you do sound like it's the research you like rather than patient interaction. If Science is what thrills you every day, believe me, it's worth getting a PhD, PharmD, or a DrPH and pursue what truly interests you.</p>

<p>I think, we researchers in Pharma do pretty well for ourselves even if the MDs in our companies do much better financially than PhDs. However, MDs have to travel way more than us and spend longer hours than us, so it all balances out in the end. </p>

<p>As long as you pursue what you truly love and find your career path, you will do fine. There's nothing better than waking up every morning looking forward to the challenges your work throws your way than to dread going to work everyday. So, if research is what you like, go for it. I would advice you to intern at Pharma during your Summers to get some exp though. Try to rotate in different departments each time.</p>

<p>By the way, I have seen many an MD get kicked off our International Project Teams, for guess what? Not for lack of experience, not for lack of intellect or knowledge but mainly for - lack of People skills!</p>

<p>Anyone who can not work with people has no place in Industry R&D either. It takes teams of hundreds of Scientists across the globe to work together efficiently to get drugs submitted to FDA and to get them approved in a timely fashion. So, people skills are essential no matter where you go.</p>

39

<p>One other place to be a researcher is - the FDA</p>

<p>MDs and PhDs get paid pretty well at the FDA too with just one difference.
We n Industr spend about 50-55 hours/wk at work, often bring home loads to read up at home......while I hear that our counterparts at the FDA get paid overtime for every 15 mins over 40 hours.</p>

<p>When I retire from Pharma, thats where I would love to go .....work part-time job at the FDA. Not for the money but to get the breadth of understanding of how different companies file submissions, their strengths, weaknesses in various therapeutic areas.</p>

40

<p>
[quote]
Its much easier to get into a top phd program than a top medical school. My friend got a 3.1 at ECE at Carnegie Mellon and is getting his phd at Stanford. Plus getting a phd is much less stressful and time consuming as getting an MD.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I would not say it is easier to get into top PhD programs, it is just that they are looking for different things. The top programs accept about a similar percentage of applicants as do the top MD programs. The MD programs focus much more on grades and test scores, while the PhD programs look at research potential. So you get people with, the programs think, great futures in research who have mediocre grades.These same programs reject plenty of people who have top gpa's, but not the imagination and research spark for that kind of career.</p>

<p>I also do not believe it is easier to get the degree. It takes longer, and it is followed by one or more post docs (the research equivalent of a residency). It is much less certain. If you go to med school and pass your courses then you get your degree. Getting a PhD requires a substantial work of original scholarship. This works for some people, but many others just don't make it.</p>

<p>It is definitely cheaper. But some of these families pushing their kids to get MD's have plenty of cash to pay for it.</p>

<p>Practicing medicine is not pseudo science, it is not science at all. Much of what is done is based on science, but the actual practice is much more like practicing law than doing research. People who would be good at research would, in general, hate practicing medicine. In medicine, by definition, most problems are routine, and they are handled in a routine way. This means doing the same thing over and over again. Scientists would find this boring.</p>