<p>I notice every time I see the term “AP lite” ucb has been the one who posted it. My kids’ HS doesn’t offer any of them (except Environmental Science which I guess you have referred to as “lite” before) and until I began hanging out here on CC a couple of years ago, I’d never heard of them either. Our HS offers AP only to juniors and seniors except for AP Euro, which sophomores can take if they have qualifying grades from the previous history course. </p>
<p>What makes you refer to those particular classes as “lite”, ucb? Just curious.</p>
<p>At Berkeley, no division or major I know of gives specific subject credit or advanced placement for AP human geography (though some may give generic social studies breadth requirement credit for it).</p>
<p>Also, the AP credit list for Berkeley on the College Board site has numerous inaccuracies (including the credit units for AP courses as well as the subject credit). Berkeley is somewhat unusual in not publishing a centralized list of AP credit; it lets individual divisions or majors determine applicability of AP scores for subject credit and placement (however, UC does have a uniform policy on credit units for AP scores as shown here: [University</a> of California - AP credits](<a href=“University of California Counselors”>University of California Counselors) ).</p>
<p>Dear Pizza delivery person: Congratulations on answering a question that was not asked. I’m looking inside the numbers, not outside. Some people can do it. Some can’t. In this case it appears more people are failing, yet more people are passing. I suspect based on the numbers involved that 1.3 million failures are inflated for some unknown reason. At this point, I suspect that both students & teachers are gaming the system, hoping to get lucky to boost admission & administration stats, but if they crap out then no harm, no foul since submitting the test is optional. If so then overall AP test results are meaningless and will remain so until the student is required to submit scores. </p>
<p>BTW AP Stats is not considered higher education by my standards, however, for you I will assume it is.</p>
Math is a poor example precisely because it requires a definite sequence of courses. Many high schools label freshman biology “AP Biology”; sophomore chemistry is “AP Chemistry”; and junior physics is “AP Physics”. In many high schools, those wouldn’t be AP courses; the senior course would be AP Bio/Chem/Physics. </p>
<p>Now, schools who do the former are those that can say that their kids usually take four AP science courses by graduation. The only thing showing that it’s a total crock is the low scores that students receive on the tests.</p>
<p>Some high schools now have half of their students in “honours” courses. Low grades on an AP might be the only thing that shows that students are just getting a fancy label slapped on a bad education, or mediocre students are getting the same credentials that were once reserved for great students.</p>
<p>It is a pre-req at our HS that a student take Bio, Chem and Physics before those respective advanced courses (only Bio is AP, the other two are Chem II and Physics II). There are “regular” and “pre” courses available for those though, pre-AP Bio, pre-Chem II vs Bio and Chem I, for example.</p>
<p>I am not sure how a student who has never taken the intro course is expected to handle what is expected in the AP/II course.</p>
<p>My S and his classmates went directly into AP Bio and Physics with no previous courses in those subjects. They had no problem with it. They went into AP Chem after having honors chem sophomore year, because they were a transition class. Now, all of the kids in that Math/Science track can go directly to the AP sequence after taking the same rigorous Honors Introduction to Science course freshman year that S and his class took, and the math sequence is designed to accompany it. </p>
<p>I would suggest that, whatever their original intent, no one seriously thinks that an AP course is the same as a college course these days–at least not a college course at a good school. </p>
<p>So why not just consider them “advanced placement in high school” and be done with the whole argument. They serve a valuable purpose as the closest thing we have to a national curriculum.</p>
<p>Some of the colleges themselves think that *some<a href=“not%20all!”>/i</a> AP scores are sufficient to give subject credit and placement into more advanced courses. For example:</p>
<p>ucbalumnus, I would argue that a student may demonstrate sufficient mastery of a subject through an AP exam to be placed in a college course that is not introductory, but THE COURSE is not equivalent to a college course in terms of speed, depth of coverage, and so forth.</p>
<p>It isn’t “a college course.” It’s a high school course.</p>
<p>On average, yes. However, surely there are individual examples of high school AP or equivalent level courses that are more rigorous, in-depth, etc. than some similar courses at colleges.</p>
<p>Indeed, this sometimes comes up in threads where advanced students are considering AP courses versus similar courses at a local college or through dual enrollment. Some students report that their local college’s courses or dual enrollment courses are less rigorous than AP courses – obviously, this is not universally true. Some private universities also have rules limiting transfer credit for college or dual enrollment courses taken while in high school – in some cases more restrictive than for AP scores.</p>
<p>ucbalum, our local CC and local 4 yr colleges where HS students could conceivably take courses–ie, not Bowdoin --generally cater to students who would not be among the population taking AP classes in HS. (There are always exceptions, of course.) So it is almost certain that the AP classes at the better regional high schools are taught at a higher level than the introductory classes at these schools. Being a freshman in college does not magically transform a B/C student in non-honors courses into an AP student.</p>
<p>I almost went to your STEM centered public magnet but chose a small Quaker school instead ;)</p>
<p>…which had zero APs. None. Never even heard of them back then. We had certain classes that were hard and known by colleges to be hard, but they weren’t AP. Of my class of 40 I’d say about half went to what CC calls the top 20 colleges/Us. </p>
<p>Times have changed or private schools are still avoiding AP to do their own thing? My alma mater still doesn’t offer any though there is an IB program now.</p>
<p>At our school you there are certain requirements in order to be allowed to take an AP. For example you must have at least a 95% in your 9th & 10th grade English classes and you must go and take a timed essay test that the AP teachers look at to make sure you have the ability to succeed. While some parents don’t like this approach it cuts way down on the number of kids who fail the AP test.</p>
<p>The quality of AP classes varies greatly among schools and even within schools. Some are very successful at providing students with great learning opportunities.</p>
<p>Our DS likes them because the students who are serious about studying cluster in them. He likes being in class with them. That is a sucess.</p>
<p>DS also studies a lot on his own (with a commercial AP study guide). He has a fistfull of 5s for which he may or may not get college credit. If he goes to his safety school, he will get credits and skip courses outside his major (that is a success). He may graduate early - could save his family a lot of money (that would be a success.)</p>
<p>If he gets into his reach school, he won’t save any time or money, but at least he will have gotten in (that is a success.)</p>
<p>APs are not a panacea for the many shortcommings in America’s school, but they do provide potential benefits for some students.</p>
<p>At the time I attended my public magnet, you had to have come from an “SP” homeroom if entering 9th grade or have at least a 90 average overall and in the specific area you’re hoping to take the AP course in. Failing to fulfill on one of the last two requirements definitely meant no AP for you. </p>
<p>Interesting phenomenon which developed was many classmates who were prevented from taking AP courses took the tests anyways and scored 4-5s after some weeks of self-study of past tests and material from the non-AP class. It was one way those who were prevented from taking the AP courses to get around the system.</p>
--generally cater to students who would not be among the population taking AP classes in HS. (There are always exceptions, of course.) So it is almost certain that the AP classes at the better regional high schools are taught at a higher level than the introductory classes at these schools. Being a freshman in college does not magically transform a B/C student in non-honors courses into an AP student.</p>