Supposedly. But who knows? Lazy, shady profs who already take one shortcut might be tempted to take another, after all…
But Marvin by your logic the student who doesn’t really know any teacher all that well would just be flat out of luck. The professor who has agreed to write for such a student is going to need a whole lot of input in order to parse together a letter. Is there really all that much difference between a comprehensive brag sheet and doing a first draft? I don’t think there is.
And I bet there are a lot of students in large public high schools that really do not know any of their teachers all that well. Especially students who may have transferred mid stream.
Maybe, but that’s the system. Rec letters are supposed to be personal and honest. How could a teacher write an honest and personal letter about someone she’s never met?
If you have a critique of the system (and there’s much to critique!), then that’s another post and a bigger topic. Breaching basic academic honesty isn’t a critique or protest; it’s lazy and shady.
It’s not at all uncommon to get a letter from a teacher at a former school. I’ve written such letters myself, for students who transferred elsewhere mid-Junior or pre-Senior year.
@marvin - The teacher may have had the student in one class so certainly they might have met him or her. But perhaps that student was just your average student with average participation in the class – the teacher knows nothing more about them because the student is not a social, go-getter type. That teacher is going to need a lot of input from the student to write even a passable letter.
I’m not really on board with the “that’s the system” argument. The LOR’s are a requirement by many (most?) colleges. You can’t just leave these kids by the wayside – and I don’t believe for a second you would do that. The most sensible approach is to get input from the student in whatever form you are most comfortable with.
Are you arguing that a teacher should fabricate details about a student that he or she doesn’t know to be true? That a teacher should write things about a student that he or she hasn’t experienced directly? Honestly, I’m shocked–this is so far beyond the aims and intentions of a recommendation letter that I’m not really sure we’ll ever see eye to eye.
I mean, sure, a recommendation letter is there to help the student. But it’s also to help the institution to which the student is applying. The adcoms want to get to know the student. If the rec writer can’t do that, then why’s she even writing the letter? This whole idea is so clearly dishonest on its face that I can’t help but think you and I have very, very different views on personal and academic honesty.
Would you recommend a random person you barely knew for a job at your workplace? If so, really? You think so little of your professional credibility that you’d squander it on a stranger? If not, is that because (A) it’s wrong or (B) you don’t want to lend your professional credibility to someone you don’t know deserves it?
I don’t believe I ever mentioned “fabricating” anything. But the student may have many talents you are simply unaware of. It is going to be a pretty lousy letter if all you can say is that the student was in your class, got an A-, participated as expected and appeared to get along with his or her peers. Colleges expect more than that.
For the student who has no close personal relationships with teachers there is no other alternative but for them to highlight some of their accomplishments --especially in those areas that might relate in some way to the class taught by the teacher who is writing the rec.
I really just do not see a world of difference between a “brag sheet” and a draft of an actual letter. Certainly the teacher will edit it as I am sure they all have their own templates. I think this teacher went further than most by asking for an actual draft, but the brag sheet basically serves the same purpose. The brag sheet is standard practice in most private high schools and I am going to bet in large publics as well.
Again, a brag sheet isn’t a letter. Even the most negligent of teachers would have to do the work of making it a letter. A teacher who asks for a “first draft” is already taking a shortcut–why you’re so confident that teacher (already shown to be pretty lazy) would then significantly rewrite it is beyond me. A teacher so prone to shortcuts is hardly one you’d trust not to take further shortcuts. Lazy or shady or both.
(You don’t have to answer my previous questions, of course, but by ignoring them, you’re leaving me to assume your answers. And those answers aren’t flattering.)
But that is not what is being asked here. The teacher is writing a general LOR for a student to submit to multiple colleges highlighting things that hopefully will make the admissions committee view him as a favorable candidate. The teacher can certainly make some inquiries to make sure that there are no disciplinary violations on the student’s record, but most teachers need more input to put a letter together. If he does not view the student favorably then it is my understanding that the teacher would usually make some sort of excuse and not agree to write. The teacher referred to in the OP specifically said he would edit the draft.
But to answer your question specifically (I was not dodging it,) if I was interested in bringing someone on to my place of employment I would schedule a lunch or dinner with that person and get a lot of specifics on what they had done in the last few years that might assist me in advocating for them. And of course I would have the benefit of their resume and LinkedIn profile. A teacher does not have that kind of time to do that for every student and the “brag sheet” is like a resume. We can debate the advisability of asking for an actual draft but I just do not see all that much difference between that and the brag sheet.
Marvin, a lot of high school teachers do not know all their students that well and yet all students who apply to college get LOR’s. Take a look at this link from one college I chose randomly relating to LOR’s. See sections 3 and 4:
[quote]
3. Organized, written information about yourself. Past activities, accomplishments, future goals will be very helpful… A copy of your personal statement/ essay (talking about your strengths, experiences, goals) – even if it’s in a very rough form…
4. Finally, remind the professor of anything specific on which you are hoping they will comment (e.g., classes you may have taken from them, a particular personal quality, the great paper you wrote in their class, the leadership you demonstrated… It will help them if you bluntly point out your strengths. Don’t be modest here!
[quote]
http://wp.stolaf.edu/psych/files/2012/10/recommendationletter.pdf
I’ve explained the difference. You see it–you just don’t care about it.
Why not? When I was a teacher, I had the time for that, and I wrote 20+ rec letters a year. I knew the students I was recommending well, and I also took the time to learn about parts of their lives that weren’t already evident (in office hours, not a “lunch or dinner,” of course). That wasn’t going above and beyond–it’s just basic responsibility and due diligence. Basically, your answer (you’d get to know the person) is right and reveals that even you don’t think it’s right to recommend someone you don’t know much about. Presumably in your “lunch or dinner” would also help you decide whether or not you want to recommend them, right? Because to recommend someone you have to know them, right?
So what would you do if a somewhat shy student who you did not know well, but who took 2 or 3 of your classes over the course of his high school career asked you to write for them? Let’s say you taught math and a LOR from a math teacher was required by 4 or 5 of his schools. You are his math teacher senior year in a very large class. Would you just decline to write for him? Where does that leave the student?
And turning a “brag sheet” into a LOR is simply inserting some of the material from the brag sheet into your template and adding your thoughts. Isn’t that the sum total of what we are really arguing over? Can he not do the same thing with a draft letter?
If I felt the student deserved my recommendation, I would either write about what I know (that student’s math capabilities and performance, which I should certainly be very conversant with having taught him in two or three classes!) or invite that student to office hours to learn more about him.
If I felt the student didn’t deserve my recommendation, I’d gently suggest to him that he’d be better served asking someone else. That’s the ethical thing to do–volunteering to recommend someone means you enthusiastically want to write about them and you think colleges should accept them.
What I wouldn’t do, under any circumstances, is completely abdicate my ethics and ask the student to write my letter for me (even a “first draft”). In addition to undermining my credibility and violating academic honesty, what message would that be sending to the kid? Not a good one.
And I don’t think most teachers would do that either – I just did not conclude from the OP that’s what this teacher was doing. He specifically said he was going to edit the draft.
The most recent LOR’s I have done were social or professional references for submission as part of the Board Package for friends or colleagues purchasing co-ops in NYC. I know these people well and can certainly write very good letters for them. Having said that, the brokers who know the individual boards of the different buildings much better than I do, usually send examples of letters because certain boards are “peculiar.” I am happy to take their examples and work with them. Doesn’t change what I am going to say and if they prefer that I hit on certain attributes I am happy to do so.
@HarvestMoon1 Actually, the prof in OP’s post said he would “probably” edit the draft, meaning he may or may not. Also there is no indication from OP’s post that the student does not know the prof well.
Here’s a great, thoughtful examination of this sort of thing by an insider:
So are we all in agreement that input from the student is fine? And if so then really it is just about how much editing the teacher in the OP intends to do.
The issue is that we are all attributing different intentions to the teacher. My thought when I read the OP was that he was going to edit the letter and add his own thoughts. Her letter was to get a read on what strengths she would like to highlight – things he may just not know about her. Just like a brag sheet.
The difference is between writing and editing. Colleges expect teachers to write rec letters, not edit them.
This is a high school student he is writing for, one that he presumably has only known for a very short time – 4 months if she started the college courses in September. He has most likely had her for one class. He is going to need a lot of input – where we disagree is what form of input is acceptable.
I pulled up my son’s “brag sheet” that he did early last Fall. If you added an intro and conclusion along with some definitive articles and pronouns it would not be a bad letter. I am pretty sure that his counselor and teachers did not use his brag sheet as anything more than supplementing what they already had to say abut him. Perhaps some cherry picking of accomplishments that might apply to their particular discipline and then adding athletics or leadership positions as a general endorsement. Why is it so hard to believe the professor in the OP would do the same thing?
I also think most college professors are very aware of these sorts of issues and would tread carefully.
Colleges expect teacher to provide letters that fairly reflect their opinion of the student.
Writing a reference letter is not an academic function, it is a management function. Originality and authorship are unimportant in a management document, what matters is that the right level of person signs to confirm the information - how suitable is this student for this or that new opportunity.
If an intern in a widget factory writes a letter saying that our widgets are indeed suitable to manufacture blodgets, it is perfectly appropriate for the boss to edit the letter and sign and send it without authorial credit to the intern.
Someone who writes every letter from scratch is either nuts or has too much time on their hands.
Why doesn’t every high school student get to write their own rec letter? It hardly seems fair that some are writing theirs while others are choosing blindly amongst however many have been submitted to their GC because they have absolutely no idea what’s in them. If that’s how the system is run, I’m surprised that colleges take them seriously.