Advice sought on sophomore D's courses

Parents Forum
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<p>Hey,</p>

<p>So it's come to this - asking for advice on what advice I should give my high school daughter in choosing classes for her upcoming sophomore year. The basic question is whether or not she should participate in the escalating nuclear AP arms race developing within her class. It's a smallish private high school with 20 percent of graduates National Merit Finalists and about that same percentage going to elite schools - this past year about 10 percent went to Stanford, Yale, Harvard, Princeton. A great many go to Duke, Wash U, Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Emory. So the enviroment is pretty competitive and college obsessed.</p>

<p>My daughter's profile: </p>

<p>Unweighted 4.0 gpa thus far (believe there are five in a class of 100 with this gpa so far - all girls!)</p>

<p>Strong tester - scored > 2100 on SAT in 8th grade (can't remember exact breakdown)</p>

<p>Won a state-wide playwriting contest this past year that was produced by a professional theater; Attended on scholarship a theater program this past month and has written another play that the theater folks are urging her to submit to out-of-state contests. We saww it performed last week and were honestly shocked by how effective it was. This is emerging as her main EC but of course time will tell if she can consistently excel in this area. She is not interested in acting, just the writing end.</p>

<p>Strong debate record her freshman year; won MVP award for debate team and has potential to go to Nationals this next year. She and her partner placed fifth in state in their event. </p>

<p>Has been consistently volunteering with children with learning disabilities for two years now. Her dream job would be special ed teacher! We are a little worried about earning potential but it really might be the direction for her. May try to volunteer in a psychology lab at local university next summer or help write a grant proposal for advocacy group.</p>

<p>Older sibling is at Harvard; she claims she's going there, too. We are talking up liberal arts colleges that are strong in writing to try and get her from fixating on such a difficult goal. </p>

<p>Tentative Sophomore Schedule:</p>

<p>AP Calculus
Honors English (AP English not allowed till junior year)
World History (AP history not allowed until junior year)
French III
General Chemistry or AP Chemistry (this is the big question)
Possibly AP psychology or government (another question)</p>

<p>The big question is chemistry. A large number of students are bypassing general chemistry and starting AP chem their sophomore year. She actually does not particularly like science but is feeling a need to "keep up" with the pack. Her older sibling took AP bio sophomore year along with regular chem, then AP chem junior year and AP physics senior year. However, older sibling is a different kid, thrives on science and loves labs. </p>

<p>We are advising her against AP chemistry at this point, telling her to leave enough time and energy to focus on her writing and debate and volunteering. Also, it is a difficult high school to maintain a 3.9 or higher; that in itself will be a very big accomplishment, with or without AP chem this year.</p>

<p>Her stated goal is Harvard or a peer school.
Would welcome any thoughts or advice. Thanks!</p>

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<p>AP Chem is really not that hard of a class, atleast not at my school. Her school may be harder than mine but at the end of the year, everyone takes the same test. And if she’s smart enough to have gotten a 2100 SAT in 8th grade (I wasn’t even near that in 11th), I’m sure she’s plenty capable of taking that class and getting an A, even if she’s weakest at Science. </p>

<p>I don’t know about AP Psych, but I would think it’s easier than AP Chem. And again, if she was smart enough to get a 2100 in 8th grade…</p>

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<p>AP Psychology and AP Government (I am assuming you mean American Government, although some schools teach American Government one semester and Comparative Government the other semester) are way more reasonable than taking AP Chemistry with no previous chemistry background.</p>

<p>There are two reasons for this: First, a background in ordinary high school chemistry really helps in AP Chemistry. But the government and psychology courses have no prerequisites and require no special background. </p>

<p>Second, AP Chemistry is the equivalent of a two-semester college course. AP Psychology is the equivalent of a one-semester college course. If AP Psychology is taught over a full year at your high school, that makes its pace considerably slower than that of AP Chemistry. AP American Government and AP Comparative Government are each the equivalent of a one-semester college course. If your high school teaches AP American Government over a full year, the pace should be reasonable. But if the school is teaching AP American Government one semester and AP Comparative Government the next, the amount of work to be covered would be formidable.</p>

<p>At my son’s high school, the counselors strongly recommended AP Psychology as a student’s first AP course – because of its relatively slow pace (by AP standards) and lack of prerequisites, and because people like the subject matter. My only concern is that including this course would give your daughter six academic courses, which is quite a lot. Five is usually considered plenty, especially if one of them is AP BC Calculus.</p>

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<p>In our D’s HS, “regular” or “honors” chemistry is required prior to AP Chemistry. It can never hurt a child to have deep understanding of the subject matter. I think a larger question here may be “will she get the important check mark of ‘most difficult’ on her transcript.” That is only a question her GC can answer. Regardless of the answer, step back and ask yourself, “am I preparing the child for the path, or the path for the child?” Just make sure you are preparing the child. I have this quote on my wall above my desk. I ask myself this question with every decision I make.</p>

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<p>If she is contemplated taking AP chem because of the competitive “AP arms race” at her school, then it’s the wrong motivation. If she had a special affinity for chemistry, had attended chemistry summer camps, etc…it would make more sense.</p>

<p>The daughter of one of my friends took AP chem without going through the regular chemistry class and found she was quickly over her head. Our h.s. also generally requires reg chem as a prerequisite but an exception was made because she had taken a chemistry class over the summer through the Johns Hopkins program for gifted students. However, she got her first high school “B” in this class and would probably agree with those saying that it’s a difficult course. </p>

<p>AP psychology/government is a different story. That she should take as a sophomore.</p>

<p>She can take AP chem in her junior year. With the amount of APs she will end up taking by the time she applies to college in her senior year, I would think that the “most difficult courseload” check off would not be in doubt.</p>

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<p>At both my kids’ high schools, Honors Chem is a prerequisite to AP Chem – no exceptions. AP Chem is a tough course, even for kids who love and excel at science. It sounds like the main issue for your D is how best to enhance her standing in the “nuclear AP Arms Race” and presumably, the race to Harvard. If that were my child’s goal, I would want to know how students who have bypassed Honors Chem and gone directly to AP Chem have done in both the classroom and on the AP Chem exam. For purposes of building a resume that will impress elite colleges, there’s no benefit to skipping general chemistry and then earning a mediocre grade and/or AP exam score in AP Chem.</p>

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<p>What are you thinking is your alternative?</p>

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<p>The alternative is for the student to choose courses that are appropriate for her, ignoring what others are doing. </p>

<p>There is serious reason to question whether a non-science-oriented kid with no prior chemistry courses would be able to succeed in AP Chemistry and equally serious reason to question whether it would be worthwhile for her to even try. The alternative of taking AP Psychology or AP Government as a sixth academic course also has drawbacks simply because it involves a sixth academic course.</p>

<p>Some kids do choose courses on the basis of what’s best for them and don’t necessarily choose the most difficult alternatives in all instances. There is such a thing as pacing yourself. There is also such a thing as having a life – or at least being able to get 8 hours of sleep per night on a fairly regular basis. Kids who make these sorts of choices do not necessarily end up at community colleges, despite the impression that this board might give.</p>

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<p>Agree with those who say AP Chem without background in a kid who is not a science nerd (meant in an endearing way) may be overwhelming.</p>

<p>My thought is that an aspiring playwriter will find much more fodder in AP Psych or AP Government material than in Chemistry problem sets.</p>

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<p>I agree with mominva</p>

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<p>Yes, Marian, has expressed it exactly right:</p>

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<p>This can be a tough concept for a 15-year-old to grasp. Oh well. We have six weeks to talk it through.</p>

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<p>I agree with the others. I will suggest two questions you might consider if you decide on gamesmanship, though. First, as somebody else asked, will the school still indicate that she has taken the most rigorous courseload if she defers AP Chemistry until later? Second, how are grades weighted for GPA? Will her comparative GPA suffer if she gets an A in general chemistry?</p>

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<p>What science did child take last year, and how did she do? </p>

<p>I am familiar with school districts where the “honors” course in science is the AP course…staring in 9th grade! It is a very accelerated curriculum, and the kids sink or swim. </p>

<p>If there is a really spectacular teacher for AP Chem, the kind who gets every motivated student to do their best, it’s likely this type of kid will do fine in the course. If the teacher is particularly difficult, in a non-motivating way, the course could be a little more of a problem…and could affect other coursework and EC’s.</p>

<p>From Post #8: “There is serious reason to question whether a non-science-oriented kid with no prior chemistry courses would be able to succeed in AP Chemistry and equally serious reason to question whether it would be worthwhile for her to even try.”</p>

<p>Given the 4.0 unweighted average, and her 8th grade SAT score, it doesn’t appear we’re looking at a kid who can’t do well in AP Chem. The question really is what will she need to sacrifice, if anything, to get a high grade in AP Chem.</p>

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<p>I’m going to swim against the tide here. At my son’s school, there was no prerequisite to AP Chemistry. He took it in 10th grade, and absolutely loved it, not so much because he loved chemistry (he is a little science-oriented, but not really), but because that was the class where he absolutely clicked with everyone in it. He did fine in the class (not so fine on the AP itself – he didn’t have his standardized-test-taking epiphany until winter of 11th grade). Our daughter – really not a science person – took regular Chemistry, and it was a complete waste of her time. She learned very little, got an effortless, empty A, and probably can’t remember her teacher’s name six years later.</p>

<p>There’s a natural tendency on the part of parents to want to damp down the “AP arms race”, and I agree with that. But if you are in a context where all or most of the students like your child are taking all APs available, it doesn’t necessarily make sense to limit them. The non-AP classes, unfortunately, become non-interesting and non-educational. The AP classes may involve too much pressure and too much competitiveness, but the kids like them better, learn a lot more, and feel more comfortable.</p>

<p>Also, to be crass for a moment, if you want to hold the Harvard possibility open, you should at least be paying a little attention to what the GCs a few years from now will consider the “most challenging curriculum”. At my kids’ school, as we learned, AP science classes and AP Calculus were at the heart of that. (AP Government and AP Psychology were not.) I would investigate this before making a final decision (knowing what I know now), and if the answer is that forgoing AP Chemistry will not knock her out of the “most challenging curriculum” box, I would (nicely) ask to get that in writing.</p>

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<p>I’ve been avoiding this thread, but I’m with JHS on this one. If you are stuck in an armsrace there’s not much you can do. Not taking the AP option will probably be detrimental to her chances at places like Harvard. My older son did chemistry in three weeks at CTY and then did AP Chem, my younger son bombed honors chem (though he claims part of the problem was the teacher - and I believe him) and never wants to look at chem again. If your kid is already getting A’s in a demanding school, and others are doing this option successfully she’ll probably be fine. She might want to do a little intro to chem reading this summer so she’ll be a bit more comfortable with it.</p>

<p>I also agree that you don’t need to take every AP out there. My older son refused to take AP English or AP Euro like many of his friends. (He took an extra honors science course and AP Econ and regular (not even honors) English as a senior.) He sold himself as a computer nerd and got accepted at Harvard (admittedly as a legacy) and rejected from MIT which we all thought was a better fit for him.</p>

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<p>Perhaps the school guidance department or science department might be able to tell you what percentage of the kids in AP chemistry have not previously taken regular high school chemistry. If it’s the majority, it’s possible that the teacher gears the course for kids with no previous chemistry background. But if it’s only a few, the teacher probably works under the assumption that the kids are familiar with the material taught in the standard high school chemistry course.</p>

<p>At my daughter’s high school, students routinely took AP American Government, AP U.S. History, and AP Physics without having taken regular high school courses in these subjects, and it worked out fine because the teachers did not assume that the students had any previous background in the subjects in question. But at the same school, high school chemistry was a prerequisite for AP Chemistry, and both high school chemistry and high school biology were prerequisites for AP Biology, so the teachers expected students to have mastered the content of the regular high school courses before they got to the AP course. A student without the expected background would have found AP Chemistry or AP Biology to be exceedingly difficult.</p>

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<p>The OP said that “a large number” of students were taking AP Chemistry in 10th grade and that her daughter wanted “to keep up with the pack”. So it seems pretty unlikely that there is a gen chem prerequisite for AP Chemistry at this school. (At my kids’ school, Gen Chem vs. AP Chemistry was an either/or choice. I imagine that a student who did well in Gen Chem might want to take AP Chemistry later, and the school might even be willing to make it happen, but it would interfere with the normal order of things.)</p>

<p>But, yes, I want to re-emphasize that my position depends on context. When in Rome, etc. If the Romans in your neck of the woods – the nobles, at least – are taking AP Chemistry in 10th grade, and you don’t want to be plebeian, you take AP Chemistry in 10th grade, too.</p>

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<p>None of these issues is ever simple it seems.</p>

<p>Our GC avoids being pinned down on the “what box will he check” question. I went through it with him with first child and he is very polite and responds with platitudes about how the student should take the classes the student is interested in,etc. Upshot was that son took a ridiculous number of APs, sleep-deprived through junior and senior years, etc. I think that, ironically, our GC’s attempt to keep from pressuring the students is leaving them in a state of ambiguity that leads them to overload the APs. </p>

<p>Regarding the chemistry tradition at the school. When my older one was there, only a handful of nerdy science kids took AP chem at all, and most after having taken the general chem class, which is not that easy. The AP chemistry teacher has a PhD and is from India. He is a really nice man, but notoriously tough on grading. </p>

<p>When I say a lot of kids in her class are planning to bypass general chemistry and do AP chemistry this sophomore year, I think it’s around 12 out of 100. I don’t mean to gender type but it just slays me that they are almost all girls! Is it just our school or is this the age of the power female students?</p>

<p>My daughter had a fairly good eighth grade science curriculum and did fine on the chemistry units. She just told me she’s going to take a look at an AP chemistry practice exams to get a sense of how difficult the material would be. She is quite frank about being completely uninterested in the subject of chemistry, though. This would be sheer gamesmanship. But who knows? Maybe an intense experience with chemistry will make it really interesting for her.</p>

<p>Perhaps worth noting that although she is drawn to literature and writing, she wants to be a psychiatrist (to understand all the lunatics in the family!). So medical school could be in her future. At some point she will need to come to terms with the need for science if that is her career path.</p>

<p>I really appreciate the informed and thoughtful posts on here. More than anything it is validating to know that other parents find supporting their kids through decisions like this complex and challenging.</p>

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<p>Reading your post about the excellent private school your daughter attends, makes me feel better about the low-quality public our kids attended, to be honest. My kids did not even know their GPA’s, took one not very good AP class in jr. year, and maybe 3 in senior year. Luckily, this was the best curriculum available to them, and quite low stress. I hate to think of your daughter looking at practice exams or, as one person suggested, studying up on chemistry, in order to make this decision. And I hate to think about the rat race she is in.</p>

<p>When I read her activities, I could not believe you have doubts about her getting in to excellent schools. The playwriting especially (with award, and professional performance,I mean come on, in 9th grade!) , and also the work with special needs kids for a solid two years, are, I think, much more likely to have an impact on admissions than some arbitrary number of AP classes, or even a GPA of 3.9 versus 4.0.</p>

<p>Two of my 3 kids went to Ivies and they got in, I’m sure, because of their activities outside school. It sure wasn’t academic preparation, and neither one was top in the class. One of them actually downgraded math not only from honors to regular, but back a whole year, so as to be able to take a certain music class. She still got in to your daughter’s dream school because, like your daughter, she had a proven and interesting artistic talent and some committed service.</p>

<p>I think that kids in schools like this are headed for nervous breakdowns (an old-fashioned term, so indulge me). No college is worth this suffering. At Harvard, an amazing percentage of kids are on meds for depression and anxiety. Taking 6 heavy duty academic classes in 10th grade is awful, and will rob her of energy and time to do what she loves and, parenthetically, what will actually interest an admissions person. Also, watch out for burn-out: it happens, and the kids crash when they do finally reach Harvard.</p>

<p>I realize that in a paradoxical way my kids had an advantage, coming from an inferior school. These days some of the elite schools are actively looking for applicants from schools they have never heard from. Maybe you should enroll your daughter in a school like ours, and she can skip AP classes this year and just write plays! Then, she will be sure to get into Harvard.</p>

<p>Seriously, is there an alternative environment for her?</p>

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<p>I have 2 rising jrs. S is a history-and-humanities type who will be taking 3 AP’s this year - a language, AP Euro Hist, and AP English – but “regular” science and math because I think the study time it would take him to do AP-level work in those classes would take away from his ability to enjoy and get the most out of the classes and EC’s he really does spark to. I have the opposite in a mathy-sciency D who will also be taking 3 AP’s (her language, AP Chem, and AP Econ) – but “regular” English because again, the amount of work it would take her to do well in AP English would take away from her ability to really engage in the classes and EC’s she does like.</p>

<p>You <em>can</em> get out of the arms race, you know. You don’t <em>have</em> to play it. You don’t <em>have</em> to compare where your kids wind up compared to the other kids. I myself don’t have one iota of interest in where other kids at my kids’ high school want to go or what their records are or will be, because they aren’t my concern or business (other than in the generic sense that I’d wish them all well). If they all go to HYP or they all go to comm college, it’s all the same to me. Maybe this is the Myers-Briggs introvert in me talking, but I think it’s very easy to get out of these arms races by just ignoring them.</p>