Affirmative Action Banned in Michigan

<p>As I've stated "Liberals in general will not accept race blind admissions"</p>

<p>"general": defined as "applicable to or characteristic of the majority of individuals involved"</p>

<p>The Democratic Party's official position is to support affirmative action -which is the exact opposite of race blind admissions, and liberals support most of the positions of the Democratic Party</p>

<p>We all know some "liberals" don't support affirmative action</p>

<p>Now with affirmative action it could be the case that DEMS, with for example "liberal" college students the DEMS lose a bit of their support on this issue, whereas the same students might more firmly support other traditional liberal issues. I believe this is because these (non-URM) college students are directly facing the flip side of affirmative action: often via admission at the undergraduate level, grad school, law school, or medicine or MBA programs etc - and soon with employers and govt jobs</p>

<p>
[quote]
do you find it bothersome when the representation of Asians on the football team is "alarmingly low" or when the representation of whites on the basketball team is "alarmingly low"? How can women get by on the softball field and in the nursing schools without a male point of view? If diversity is so vital, why are there still thousands of black students who choose to go to historically black colleges?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>With apologies to Coaches Carr and Amaker, and the thousands of student-athletes who assert that sports have been a major influence in their lives....no, I don't think the learning environment on the football and basketball teams deserves the same concern or attention, at least in regards to this issue.</p>

<p>As for men in nursing, that is something U-M has traditionally considered and they do believe a mixed-gender discipline is a better one.</p>

<p>Speaking most generally, I think we will always find--and sometimes even encourage--mini-climates on campus where students who are like each other will gather. There are clubs and organizations and residence halls where there isn't full diversity. The point is not to insist that every single corner of campus be representative, multi-ethnic, and fully integrated by sex, race, religion, income, major, and citizenship. The point is rather to create an overall campus environment sufficiently diverse. In that situation, such smaller "enclaves" (for lack of a better term) don't detract from the real opportunities to learn from others not like oneself.</p>

<p>Does a black student lose something (in terms of having a diverse experience on campus) when they go to an HBCU? Yes. However most informed observers believe that what they gain more than makes up for it. It would be hard to argue that whites would realize those same benefits from going to a near-exclusively white campus. </p>

<p>I feel like I'm writing this post in reverse order of generality heh. Overall, the simple math of being a minority means that minorities are much more frequently in an environment where people have different racial and ethnic backgrounds from their own than do folks in the majority. Frankly, the kind of diversity I'm talking about probably benefits whites more than blacks, hispanics, and native americans--simply because for some whites it may pose one of the first and/or most comprehensive, meaningful opportunities to experience it. Diversity is somewhat inescapable when you're regularly (and often overwhelmingly) outnumbered. </p>

<p>FWIW, you're quoting "alarmingly low" back to me, so let me explain why I used it. The number of black males at Berkeley is so low, I think there's a good chance a student could go through UC and graduate having never seen a black male student in any classroom. Which is incredible to me, the flagship school in such a huge state! That's alarming (to me). Obviously it's not just lack of affirmative action that's the problem there, but still. Good lord.</p>

<p>
[quote]
A school is 60% white, 30% Asian, 5% black, and 5% Hispanic and it's a diversity catastrophe, nobody can get a decent education, and Mary Sue Coleman will be standing on the steps of the admissions building like George Wallace, trying to stop the National Guard from escorting in some Asian students.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>As I've said elsewhere, I think such claims are pretty ridiculous--I don't think thoughtful people generally share this kind of perspective. FWIW, I am not sure these are the points we should be arguing. I would feel like I was wasting my time defending statements that are patently ridiculous, whether they were actually made my Prop 2 opponents or exaggerated in paraphrase. Similarly, I am sure you don't want to do the same for ridiculous statements made by or attributed to Prop 2 supporters.</p>

<p>It's hard to pick out which of my statements you think are "patently ridiculous." I'm assuming you think it's particularly ridiculous that Mary Sue Coleman might be physically trying to block the entry of the people who benefit from Prop 2. Ok, maybe she won't physically be there--having to be physically anywhere is so last millenium...but her statement reminds me a LOT of the defiant anti-integration rhetoric that some Southern governors spewed in the early 1960s. It's clear that she considers it a moral obligation to thwart the university's cooperation in any way she can. Suppose the head of the U of M medical school wasn't very enthused about abortion, even though it is generally a legal procedure in the state. Would he have the right to halt the teaching of the procedure at the med school?</p>

<p>P.S., It's clear that racism continues to be a huge hot-button issue in politics and on camuses. Mary Sue Coleman appears to think pro-diversity = anti-racism = pro-affirmative action. That might be why she sees this as more than a legal dispute over affirmative action...to her it's a moral crusade against racism. I think a lot of anti-affirmative action folks see affirmative action, diversity, and racism as three distinctly different topics.</p>

<p>No, I also think MSC would be ridiculous if she called Prop 2's passage "a disaster" or that no one could get "a decent education" without affirmative action. In my opinion, those are ridiculous assertions. I would find them ridiculous of a Prop 2 opponent made them, and I would find them ridiculous if a Prop 2 supporter used them to characterize opponent's positions. Some people have said such things, and frankly I think that style of argument is beneath this forum. Beneath any kind of sensible debate. I don't want people making hysterical statements on my side, or on yours.</p>

<p>That is why, IMO, many AA backers don't appreciate the efforts of BAMN, and why that group had to fight legally to join in on the case as is went through the courts.</p>

<p>Does MSC feels that AA is a moral crucade against racism? Certainly that's part of it. But I think there is more to it. I don't know how much 'racism' was discussed in the legal proceedings. At any rate, I think she (and many at the U and elswhere) believe it is an important tool in addressing pervasive inequities and to making U-M the best place it can be. FWIW, I believe some pro-AA folks also discern the differences between racism, diversity, and AA.</p>

<p>Hoedown, I think if you re-read MSC's speech (link in post #21), you will see that my tone is much more moderate than hers. Also, the dominant theme of her speech was diversity, not affirmative action or Proposal 2 (she mentioned "diversity" 19 times, as opposed to "affirmitive action" and "Proposal 2" a combined 11 times--and yes, I know that one doesn't determine a theme by counting words). Can you seriously read that speech and tell me she is one of the people who sees diversity, affirmative action, and racism as three distinct topics? It's a blatant attempt to spin Prop 2 into a racist, anti-diversity strawman.</p>

<p>Her attitude towards these 3 topics might be the key to figuring out how this is going to unfold. If she truly sees it as a moral crusade against racism, it's hard to see how she would give in even a little bit. For example, she said, "As Susan B. Anthony said in her crusade for equal rights, 'Failure is impossible.'" Combine that with her mindbogglingly mild disclaimer in that brief, throwaway line about how she will abide by state law, and it sounds like a Woody Hayes speech before a UM-OSU game.</p>

<p>I was standing there listening to it as she gave it, actually. </p>

<p>As I said in the U-M forum, I didn't really like the speech. I didn't think the message was a good reflection of U-M's reasons for valuing diversity. I don't know why it was written as it was. </p>

<p>I believe I was wrong to parse her words and mindset when I haven't asked her personally. However, U-M has in numerous other venues been articulate about why it thinks diversity is valuable. It's not MSC's personal fight, it's the University's, so I can't help but consider the sum of their advocacy over time and weigh it more heavily than her speech. </p>

<p>FWIW, I rolled my eyes at the Susan B. Anthony quote when I heard it. LOL</p>

<p>It takes guts to admit you rolled yor eyes at the Susan B. Anthony remark. At least she didn't mention Joan of Arc.</p>

<p>Joan of Arc, hee.</p>

<p>Guts? Naw. A hokey reference is a hokey reference. </p>

<p>I mean, don't get me wrong.... I think the issue of racial equity and equality in education is one of the most important and pressing questions my generation needs to deal with. But I bristle at the idea that these issues, and their solutions (whatever they may be), are comparable to the issue of granting citizens their voting rights. This issue is both more important and less important than that--mostly, it's just different. I think it's almost cheap -- and unnecessary -- to dredge up pithy quotes from historic icons who championed causes when they're pretty different from the one at hand. </p>

<p>It would be one thing, maybe, if MSC speechwriters found a great relevant quote about education, or diversity, or opportunity. But it was just a quote about determination that anyone could have made. John Wayne, Attila the Hun, Edmund Hilary, Donald Trump, anyone. Selecting a Susan B Anthony quote was just an attempt to co-opt her image of fighting for equality. </p>

<p>Eleanor Roosevelt, maybe? That I could have lived with. </p>

<p>And of course, the "failure is impossible" theme seems ill-fitting in any event. I just don't like it. </p>

<p>Listen to me ramble. I'm desperately seeking periodic breaks from a difficult project, so that explains why I'm being Posty McWordykins today.</p>

<p>Regarding the choice of Suan B. Anthony...she probably even could have found an inspiring quote from MARC Anthony...something like, "JLo wouldn't even LOOK at me the first time I met her when I was married to a former Miss Universe. But did I give up? F- no!"</p>

<p>Snort. See, you and I disagree about this issue, but would I take you out and buy you a beer? Yes I would.</p>

<p>I have a hard time typing when I'm blushing.</p>

<p>Ok, the blushing has faded a bit. Hoe, I read some of your posts from recent weeks--you did a wonderful job of trying to settle down the U of M students who were apoplectic over Prop 2. I was also surprised that in one post you described yourself as an "adult." If you're an adult, why are you still in Ann Arbor? I haven't felt comfortable there since the Reagan administration. By the way, I really admire the way you hyphenate compound adjectives--it's a lost art.</p>

<p>TourGuide, regarding the place of HBCUs in American society, you might benefit from taking a look at the arguments in the Brown v. Board of Education case. I am not talking about the law but the 'socialogical perspectives' and testimony that was made part of the court record. The Brown plaintiffs made the case for societal integration in 1954. But today, for many college-bound Blacks, HBCUs redress the societal stereotypes and stigma identified in Brown. What I am trying to say is that your current comparison of the racial contrasts between "traditional campuses" and HBCUs isn't accurate.</p>

<p>Thanks, Lake Washington. As I said, I LIKE the idea that there are historically black colleges--clearly they have produced a lot of very prominent African American leaders. And I agree that I need to read up on them more. I'll check into the "sociological perspectives." But right now I'm helping Mary Sue Coleman write her next speech. Let's see, "I have a dream: that some day applicants will be judged by the color of their skin and not by their SAT scores..."</p>

<p>Very inspiring, TourGuide446.</p>

<p>Very inspiring, TourGuide446.</p>

<p>I'm an adult all right. Sometimes people come to U-M for graduate school and then they meet and marry locals, and become lifers. I am one of them. It's a pitiful position to be in; although I really like Ann Arbor, it is a transient town and we're forever having to say goodbye to people who graduate or get a faculty job somewhere else.</p>

<p>Honestly, this discourse is far too civilized for an online discussion of affirmative action. I feel like I'm going to be thrown off the internet.</p>

<p>I love the hyphen like I love the semicolon. Passionately & reverently.</p>

<p>I see you love the ampersand too. Did I spell that right?</p>

<p>When hoedown's spouse isn't watching, she dims the lights, fires up a scented candle, puts on something slinky and sheer, and dials up <a href="http://www.punctuation.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.punctuation.com&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>"Honey, are you OK in there? Honey?"</p>