Affirmative Action: Why?

Student Lounge African-American Students
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<p>I'm doing a TOK presentation on Affirmative Action this Thursday - I will be using posts on this thread for substance.</p>

<p>The intent of Affirmative Action is both appreciated and sad: there shouldn't BE a need for it - but statistics show that there still is a need for it.</p>

<p>America isn't just gonna be off the hook for slavery by helping some of us get into college now, because AA doesn't reverse the 300+ years of mental degradation that the (dare I say) majority of us are still suffering from today. - But at least they are making the effort.</p>

<p>In any event, the Willie Lynch curse is almost up.
So let's just keep prayin' and keep on keepin' on......</p>

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<p>listen i am not saying that you didn't work your butt off to get into those schools and i am pretty sure you deserved to get into those schools..all i saying is that being a minority may have been what put you above other students...and you really shouldn't care what other people think and you should be rather proud of your accomplishments...good luck to you next year</p>

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<p>Rach- you're suffering from slavery from hundreds of years ago? Wow. How is that? Are you a believer in reincarnation? Nobody living today was a slave owner; and nobody living today was a slave. Yet you still are looking for sympathy on a personal level from whomever.</p>

<p>So what specifically will get 'America' (whoever that is) off the hook as you phrase it? Are you looking for financial reparations? An easier acceptance into colleges? What will do the trick for you personally, who was never a slave?</p>

<p>I, as a Catholic, am also suffering like you, from the ravages of the Romans. But I'm getting better every day.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
"Rach- you're suffering from slavery from hundreds of years ago? Wow. How is that? Are you a believer in reincarnation? Nobody living today was a slave owner; and nobody living today was a slave. Yet you still are looking for sympathy on a personal level from whomever."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>You really should keep your sarcastic comment to yourself because you have no idea what you are talking about. THe oppresion of black people did not magically end with slavery but rather continued well into the 1960s when black people actually GOT the opportunity to end attend schools that white people had been going to for years. So our parents generation was the first generation to even have an equal opportunity, for example my uncle's class was the first integrated class of his high school. </p>

<p>On a psychological level there is tacit conceptions that black people are less than other races aka sterotypes that blacks are stupid or criminals and other such.</p>

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<p>Dbate... jumpseat's comment is still valid, as this generation has not oppressed black people, thus since rach is a HS/college student, he has not been oppressed and therefore cannot seriously claim that he suffers any effect from it. Any such person who claims they suffer from effects like this is looking for sympathy and plz don't attempt to argue w/ me, I'm a jewish person who lost ancestors in the holocaust which is much more recent than slavery and I don't look for advantages/sympathy/reparations from anyone because I myself never knew those ancestors or experienced the event. Do i feel somewhat sad about it? Yes, as does pretty much every person except for skinheads/nazis, but do I lay awake at night crying? No. </p>

<p>Also, AA is so pointless. I agree w/ the hollistic approach (aka those who don't test well, whether they are black,white,hispanic,etc. can still get in), but AA is racist and wrong. You cannot take yourself seriously if you argue against slavery against racism, claim you still feel the effects of it all, but then say that AA is a fair, necessary and justified process.
What about the white/international students accepted w/ lower test scores and grades? They still succeed in graduating at HYPS with the same success as URMs w/ lower test scores/grades, but in general they are screwed by AA. And why should international students be screwed b/c of AA? They had nothing to do w/ slavery or racism in America.</p>

<p>As far as diversity goes, skin color doesn't make diversity, living in different areas and having different experiences makes diversity. So if eliminating AA reduced the # of minorities at schools, it wouldn't reduce diversity b/c you would still have people from every socio-economic group, and maybe even more international students (which adds alot more to diversity than skin color). </p>

<p>Besides, no matter what skin color you have, there is always something you can do to make yourself a better applicant. More activities, more SAT prep, leadership programs, etc. College admission should be about talent,leadership, work ethic, community service, etc., NOT ABOUT RACE.</p>

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<p>Make sure you fully understand that the definition of Affirmative Action is not limited to race. Once you do limit it to race, then you are, in fact, racist. And yes, this is directed at everybody.</p>

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<p>sandlansd-</p>

<p>So well said. Dean J needs to read that. Would love to hear his attempt at rebuttal.</p>

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<p>I don't think the quality of a high school or a person's race has anything to do with how well they score on standardized tests or in school. I think the primary factor is whether the students are being raised by two loving parents. I am Asian. Asians are not smarter than any other race, but pretty much every Asian student who does well in school is being raised in a home with both a mom and dad who care about their academic success. Many of my white friends also come from this type of home. However, there isn't an African American in my school that I know who can say this. Most of my African American friends live with their grandmothers or aunts. A few live with their mothers, but none live with both their mom and dad. I think this is a terrible disadvantage. </p>

<p>If AA helps these students, then I think that's great and I support it fully. If AA helps African Americans and Hispanics who do have both parents at home, so what? That's OK with me. </p>

<p>One final thought. I don't think AA will ever do what it is designed to do (help African Americans and Hispanics escape poverty). I think that will occur only when they realize that their children will have a much better chance of succeeding when they are raised in homes with both parents. Even so, AA is better than nothing.</p>

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<p>it cuts both ways.
sandlansd, the holocaust may have been recent, and you may or may not be over it, but the overwhelming portrayal/attitude towards Jewish people isn't as it is for Black people. Jewish people are better educated and wealthier compared to rest of the population. Black people not so much (not yet anyway) And it makes a big difference. AA probably isn't going away for now, and it shouldn't.
That said, I've seen why people complain about AA and it has a lot to do (obviously) with the "he stole my spot" idea. I went to majority white hs, 3 black guys, 4 black girls, 1 latina in a senior class of 110. It's an excellent and wealthy school; the poorest kids there(ie me and my bro) were lower middle class. But too many of my black friends cut class/ left early, stole little things, missed deadlines, got suspended etc. I guess they figured they couldn't all get expelled or the school would lose fin aid they invested, and look terrible in the process. Our year, I heard so much complaining about AA by white kids, who in their disgust, ostracized all the minorities. The year before, everyone handled their business in school and half the black kids went ivy. Not a single legit complaint.
So like I said, it cuts both ways...</p>

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<p>"If the belief is that affirmative action is multi-faceted, then lets attack each side and discuss. I submit that some might think it is a multi-faceted problem because it is believed that members of different groups do not agree or understand the definition.</p>

<p>Groups include: Women, Men, Low-income students, African-American students, Asian students, Hispanic students, Causcasian students, middle income students, high income students, Aspergers students. This is not an all encompasing list, Students can of course belong to multiple groups. "</p>

<p>I'm in line with silvermoonlock... as late as this is. The general affirmative action debate always seems to return back to blacks and hispanics (with, I've observed, particular emphasis on blacks), even though the list is much larger than that. For all the talk of "it's just a skin color", I think the focus on those two races points to a larger bitterness and racism that definitely still exists, regardless of whether slavery ended hundreds of years ago. And as for those of you who are URMs not in favor of affirmative action: how many of you didn't check the box for your race, or left off that National Achievement award? I'm curious to see how much of this is genuine and how much of it is just bitterness at having your accomplishments looked down on because you <em>are</em> black. Any personal offense at being attacked isn't really a valid point. And the entire "stole your spot" argument sounds just as entitled as some claim "EmekChris"es of this board are (no offense to Emek.)</p>

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<p>I think AA should focus less on race, more on gender and economic status. People in the black community are divided on economic lines; ever heard the distinctions, "field nigger-house nigger", "black people - niggers"? The latter is more common, and I think Chris Rock shed light on it, but that distinction is alive. We haven't really changed from it.</p>

<p>So I think if there were a privileged black candidate vs. a low economic class black candidate (or white candidate), priority should go to the lower class. America, the world actually, has shown sexist and classicist views far longer than racist views.</p>

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<p>I’m going to be real with my answer. I support AA b/c my ancestors fought so hard for it. Seeing how just a few hundred years ago, blacks were denied everyday privileges we take for granted is unreal to me. It’s not just that, but it’s a win-win situation: The colleges get the best of the minorities and we get a better education and a chance in the workplace. Not everyone has Bill Gates money or a family name to get them in a college but merely the lessons of their teachers and classmates, so AA is designed to help us further ourselves when just decades ago, people tried to keep us from the elite universities. </p>

<p>That’s all = ]</p>

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<p>I agree 100% BlackNerd219.</p>

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<p>^^lol BlackNerd? hahaha that’s funny.</p>

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<p>Hey, guys I started one of thee debates in the what are my chances forum. </p>

<p>My feeling is for us African americans - we need to focus on actually getting african americans to college first. About 60 percent of african American males drop out of high school. 50 % of those droputs end up in jail. However, of the 40% who do go to college-roughly 80% of them complete college. ( don’t believe me -check it up) What us African americans really need is a program called “get your kid into college”.</p>

<p>If such happened there would be no need for AA.
Next, for those who believe African Americans are not suffereing from the impacts of slavey decades later- here’s a little bone for you,
2 studies</p>

<p>One study conducted had applicants with sterotypically black names ( Jamiesha e.x.) v.s stereotypically white named applicants given to employers ( same qualifications).
The employers overwhelming chose applicants with names like Jane and Harry because they felt the black applicants were lazy - without even knowing them !</p>

<p>CNN found from its own research that being a black man in America is equal to having a felony record. </p>

<p>I didn’t make this up.
So obviously, slavery still impacts the lives of african americans.</p>

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<p>One of my friends hates affirmative action because he doesn’t want people attributing his success in life to the policy. Though he’s probably in the minority, no pun intended.</p>

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<p>All the statistics in the world won’t stop you from succeeding. </p>

<p>Look, lets get real: If you’re a minority and you’re succeeding you’ll always be seen by envious eyes that think “How’d you get that, and I didn’t? Must be a minority…no fair.” Hell, even people of your own kind will dislike you for succeeding. But what else can you do but fight to prove your worth and just be yourself and you’ll suceed in the world. Yes it is a “white man’s world” but play the game right and you’ll truly be happy. </p>

<p>A lot of it definitely has to do with the culture, this stereotypical image portrayed by mainstream hip-hop that young African-American males often follow. So beat it, yes you must!</p>

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<p>AA doesn’t actually lower the requirements in a significant way. simply put, it ensures that colleges give fair opportunities to students of color who wouldn’t otherwise get that chance simply because they are of color. Instead of railing against AA, people should be railing against the reason we need AA in the first place: because racism s still very much alive.</p>

<p>AA does not result in handouts. Not to mention that people of color are not the only individuals who benefit from AA. Disabled individuals and white women also benefit from AA. However, despite this fact, people still tend to want to only associate it with Blacks so that they can try and get rid of it. </p>

<p>Some years ago there was a lawsuit filed at a GA school by two white females. They claimed they had been denied admission because other less qualified students had been admitted over them because of AA. As the media began to dig deeper, it was revealed that these two white women had GPA less than 3.0 and mediocre SAT scores. The Black candidates they claimed had been given preferential treatment had GPA above 3.0 and very good SAT scores. The bottom line was that these women weren’t qualified anyway, yet they still used the AA reverse discrimination argument. From my experience, this type of thing appears to be the norm.</p>

<p>Point blank, people should use common sense when thinking about AA. Yes, colleges want to afford opportunities to people who might not otherwise receive such opportunities, but they aren’t going to accept someone whose credentials are not within a reasonable range. Furthermore, just because someone comes from a less than privileged household does not mean that they have pitiful scores and grades. </p>

<p>Finally, I would like to add that while i have noticed some whites complain about AA, i don’t see them complaining to the same extent about these “grandfather clauses” at schools like Harvard and Yale. </p>

<p>I’m all for AA. It is a necessary thing in this society.</p>

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<p>MuPiLady,</p>

<p>While I am a African-American who supports the concept of affirmative action, I do not buy your reasoning that the reason we need affirmative action is, “Because racism is still alive”. </p>

<p>I am not arguing that racism does not exist in our country today. I have been called ni*** and spat on before because of the fact that I am black. My only point is that I do not believe that the racism that exists in 21st century America prevents blacks from succeeding like the racism of post-civil war and Jim Crow America up until the mid-1960s. The government no longer sponsors detrimental policies like segregation, white only primaries, or labor laws in the deep south that were akin to slavery in all but name. </p>

<p>In fact, the government now works very hard to help out minorities especially blacks. Affirmative action exists in almost every segment of our society whether it be government, employment, or education. The city of New Haven threw out test results for fire fighter promotions because black fire fighters did not pass while whites did. </p>

<p>Our country elected a black President, which of course does not mean that racism is gone as some idiots have argued, however; it does mean that a black man was able to reach the highest rung of American society despite all of the supposed racism.</p>

<p>My point in all of this is that racism does in fact still exist, however; the racism that exists is largely superficial and does not severely hold back African-Americans from success. </p>

<p>The problem I feel is cultural and economic. When I was born, I was adopted by an affluent Jewish family. As a result I was raised in a Jewish household were a premium was put on education. I am expected to go to college and I am one of the 1000 or so blacks who scored above 700 on my verbal section, only after my parents made me destroy myself with SAT prep. My opinion is that if blacks were to adopt a more Jewish or East Asian philosophy with education, many more blacks would succeed regardless of racism. Asians and Jews are a very small proportion of the population who were subjected to racism in the past (Pogroms, exclusion, near enslavement in California), yet education has allowed them to be disproportionally successful. </p>

<p>The problem is that it is not as simple as many conservatives would argue to make blacks value education more. I do not think that your average inner city single black mother says to herself, “Screw education I wont help my kids succeed”. Rather the issue is that parents do not have time because they are too busy working dead end jobs that dont pay well, living in crime infested neighborhoods, or lack the education necessary to help their kids.</p>

<p>In the end like MuPiLady I support AA, however, we should realize the reasons why blacks do not succeed are cultural and economic, not race based. If we focus on race as the biggest problem we will never succeed and it will only serve as an excuse for failure.</p>

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<p>IMO, I think that colleges should accept students in whatever way they find fit. If a college wants to have a “diverse” class then they are going to have to accept a substantial amount of minorities to make whatever their standard of diversity is. </p>

<p>I highly doubt that many of us are admissions officers or have been admissions officers so we really have no idea what an applicant must possess to gain admission. You might think that so and so’s mediocre scores should call for a rejection but the admissions officers might feel that her outlook on life is so strong it makes up for it. We really don’t know why they accept who they do so for anyone to say it was because of AA or because of their race shouldn’t because they are ignorant of why that person was accepted. </p>

<p>As much as we would like to say race doesn’t matter, can you honestly say a person would be no different if they were a different race? Different races have different cultures and values that you would not be able to learn from homogenous student body. If a school believes that accepting people of different races is going to make their school stronger then who are we to say they shouldn’t pay attention to race. IMO we are the ones trying to get into these schools. If you don’t support the way of a certain school accepts their students then why are you applying? If you have chosen not to apply to a certain school because they use AA, which is something you don’t support then I believe more power to you. But honestly how many of you said “Oh they use AA, this is something I don’t agree with, I’m not applying?” I doubt many.</p>

<p>Lastly I don’t think that because of affirmative action colleges are lowering their standards. I think the URMs that they pick fit into their normal stats or at least come pretty close. Also unless someone has any proof to correct me I think we are all assuming that the lower end of a college is made up of URMs. I think you can just as easily assume that the people on the lower end of the group are not an URM. Plus if you think about it because URMs are under represented it would be likely that most of the students accepted to what some would believe to be “sub-par” are not a URM. </p>

<p>Anyways those are just my opinions. I support AA and I believe that colleges are being fair if that is what they believe their school stands for.</p>