<p>Sadly, I think that there are some parents that have no idea how aggressive their daughters are. A good friend of mine pulled another friend of mine aside and cautioned her about her wild child daughter. They remained friends and the friend of wild child did reign her D in. I recall years ago when my oldest got to be late teens and I opened the door to a couple girls who had come to see my son. I turned my back to yell up to my son and the girls ran right by me up the stairs to his room. I was in shock because we just didn’t do such things when I was a teenage girl. I remember when son 2 was in high school and they banned “grinding” at the dances and the chaperones started separating dancers. Sure we did our share of stalking from afar but never rang a doorbell and ran upstairs to a boys bedroom and we weren’t grinding at the high school dances. Fast forward to college add a few slugs of vodka, a college where there aren’t parents on hand to keep an eye on the situation, co-ed dorms and no curfews for kids that had a short leash and it has the potential to be an extremely complex problem. I really don’t think what I’ve witnessed is all that unique…the world is just really different now than it was in the 70s. </p>
<p>Please don’t get upset poet - remember all I have is the male perspective and my dim recollections of being a young woman. </p>
<p>Hanna for some reason I don’t think it’s all that unusual - remember this is the generation that grew up knowing that DD stands for designated driver and if they are going to use a car and drink then someone has to stay sober so it stands to reason that certain groups might deploy this action for nights out. Personally I don’t see the thrill of going to a crush full of drinking…but then again I certainly did in college. But even in college at that tender age I’ was a control freak and I never drank to the point that I lose control and i still don’t…I have this weird id in my brain that says don’t don’t don’t. But in college I certainly drank enough that I had regret sex once or twice and I’ll fully admit to that. Back then you just kicked yourself and hoped no one held it against you. </p>
<p>@Hanna I couldn’t agree more. Also, I think most of us realize that this is the exact reason that the first semester freshman year, particularly up til thanksgiving, is the most dangerous time for rape on a college campus. Most young women are not going to run around regularly behaving this way. But many will overdrink a bit at first, and some tremendously so, before they get the hang of how drinking effects them.</p>
<p>This is one of the unfortunate outcomes of pre-gaming and hard liquor drinking, which is one of the reasons I so strongly wish they’d make the legal drinking age for beer and wine 19. </p>
<p>Heading to a dinner; looking forward to reading responses more carefully later. But just wanted to quickly point out that it is the kids who don’t regularly drink but who might decide to experiment once or twice who might be the most in need of the help of friends because they have no tolerance for alcohol and no sense of how it is going to affect them. So the fact that yr son has no female friends who regularly drink to excess doesn’t mean that one of his friends might not exceed her limit on one limited occasion. </p>
I’m with you on that and so is a consortium of college presidents and i don’t think it needs to be beer and wine only. Vodka is huge among the college set because it has no smell and the flavored ones are the equivalent of “our” Boones Farm back in the day. Someone left a bottle of whipped cream vodka at our vacation place. Double yuck. </p>
<p>And another positive effect would be it would be legal to have adults at parties who check in on things and make sure they do not get out of hand. Currently, adults (who are not students) cannot be seen else they be accused of allowing underage drinking.</p>
<p>The drinking age was 18 when I was an undergrad, changed to 21 my senior year. I distinctly remember, as a freshman, sophomore and junior, campus security would routinely show up and walk through the parities where everyone was drinking. It was not unusual for me to chat with the campus security in the party. They would just hang out a bit, walk upstairs, check the basement, check the parking lot, all the while saying hello to students. I even remember all their first names. But, senior year, not one in sight, as the age was now 21 and they had to purposefully look the other way. </p>
<p>Yep. For decade after decade college women have been feeling that same frustration. It’s an unfortunate situation this tiny group of criminal sexual predators have put so many college kids into. </p>
<p>That is very true poetgrl. The bad apples can really spoil things for everyone. Girls are hurt by predators and boys are hurt by association. Which is why real police should handle sexual assaults.</p>
<p>“it is the kids who don’t regularly drink but who might decide to experiment once or twice who might be the most in need of the help of friends because they have no tolerance for alcohol and no sense of how it is going to affect them.”</p>
<p>Yes and no. I’ve been at that party with that kid. When you have no tolerance for alcohol and no sense of how it’s going to affect you, don’t start by doing shots. I wonder how six Kamikazes are going to affect you, non-drinker? You’re going to get smashed, and you know that perfectly well. People sometimes do miscalculate early on and go a beer or two over their limit, but that’s not usually what I saw when people needed their friends’ help. I usually saw “One drink was OK, let’s try twelve!”</p>
<p>The crazy thing is that almost all my college parties were at some of the squarest nerd schools in America (U of Chicago, Bryn Mawr, and Harvard). It’s got to be a lot worse when freshmen show up at schools where there are REAL parties.</p>
<p>I think young men should be taught to never allow another young man to take a drunk girl home by himself, no matter how much of a gentleman he seems to be. Some of the predators seem very nice. The corollary to this is not to take her home by yourself, either, because attentive people might think you are a predator. At least get another gentleman to help.</p>
<p>I still think two is better than one, but I agree it’s better to have another girl help… Kindly taking the drunk girl home is a trick that predators actually use. Sadly, I know this to be the case.</p>
<p>And yet the affirmative consent rules being talked about do not seem to be targetting the “tiny group” of criminal predators who clearly target girls and know what they are doing is wrong… If the 20% number (which includes sexual assault of all types, attempted acts and non-school times of year) is really true, then there has to be more than a tiny group of alleged perpetrators committing these acts or they would seem to be relatively easy to prosecute. If 20% (or even 10%) of women on a campus are being assaulted by a handful of bad actors,wouldn’t there be some pretty convincing evidence?</p>
<p>That is part of the reason why I am not convinced that the study that is used to support the 20% rate and the study suggesting most assaults are by serial predators are looking at the same data or use the same definition of sexual assault. The 20% number, and the cases the colleges find most difficult to adjudicate, must include a fair number in which a boy does not set out to get a girl drunk and take advantage of her or doesn’t stop at “no”, but where “yes” is not good enough because the girl was too inebriated to affirmatively consent. Not passed out, not semi-conscious, not throwing up, just drunk. </p>
<p>Very sad that girls have to be scared of any boy they don’t know (on a college campus) and boys have to bring a buddy along when helping a drunk girl to ensure they are not falsely accused - not just by the girl but by someone who witnesses him helping her home. </p>
<p>There are so many great guys out there. I just have to say that. Whatever advice we have to give all the time, the overwhelming majority of guys really do want to do the right thing. </p>
<p>Good luck to all the new students. Try to have fun, and, as I told my girls in a text every day, use your head. </p>
<p>In the current environment, strange is not the limitation that I think exists. Unless, the guy(s) is an extremely good friend, this rule seems to apply to any guy.</p>
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<p>I admit that I never thought of this angle. My son’s actions are done from a preemptive CYA mode, but clearly it applies for other reasons as well.</p>
<p>@poetgrl and @zoosermom, I hope that what I am seeing is a meeting of the minds, because I am fond of you both and think you probably have more in common on this topic than it might initially appear. </p>
This is an excellent point and very important to always remember. In this thread, however, when we discussed (and I do mean discussed because some of us parents of boys are figuring it out as we go) what a boy should do, one poster accused us of wanting our boys to turn their backs on incapacitated girls by asking for help from a professional or someone else. So even here in this small universe, there is a damned if you do and damned if you don’t mentality, never mind what is out there in the complicated wider world. But you made an absolutely excellent point that I hadn’t considered at all.</p>
<p>Consolation, I have the greatest respect for poetgrl and admire her passion and commitment to keeping young women safe. For those women and the people who love them, her information is absolutely priceless and could save them from a world of hurt. I applaud that and am grateful for it because it’s people like her (and maybe poetgrl, herself) who helped provide the information that let my girls get through college unscathed. Not only do I respect and admire her knowledge and commitment, I agree completely with everything she says from the perspective of safety.</p>
<p>Where we disagree is in the context of this specific thread which is about young men and their families learning to navigate a different set of circumstances than anyone has ever seen before. I think this is a valid and worthwhile and important topic for those families that should be allowed to be addressed on its own merits, sometimes messily, without it being pointed out that what women can face is worse because if it’s your son’s life that is being ruined, nothing in the world is more important. Young men can and sometimes are abused (particularly young men who don’t conform to the standard model of masculinity) by other men, and sometimes by women. I posted governmental statistics on that which are quite eye opening. There were several comments in this thread by several posters that I found to be completely over the top and, frankly, hateful. I suspect that poetgrl and I don’t disagree on the merits of any of this stuff, just in how we prioritize. When my girls were facing these things, my focus was all on them. Now that my son is going to face a whole new set of experiences WITHOUT ME HOLDING HIS HAND, I need to focus on that and I will swear to the death that boys and girls are very different, even at college age, and that I am a total newbie when it comes to boy things.</p>
<p>Zoosermom and I agree on many things and occaisonally disagree and it has never once effected the way I see her. We do fine, and I respect her opinions.</p>
<p>I am of the opinion that much of this fear for the men is incredibly overblown, and a distraction, for the most part. But, that doesn’t mean a thing. I have no concern at all for Zoosermom’s son, anymore than I had for yours @Consolation or Momofthree, since I happen to know he is well raised and will not be rushing in to have sex with a drunk girl he barely even knows. </p>
<p>Either way, I agree it is good to know the rules and regulations. </p>
<p>My son is a great kid, but he is exactly the kind of clueless doof who could get caught in a very bad situation. I know that he wouldn’t ever intentionally harm anyone, particularly a woman (we have him in a single sex school because his life is so heavily female), but he just is out there on another planet a lot of the time. People say it’s the musician thing, but I disagree. I think he is immature and overly parented and I mean to make sure that is rectified before he goes to college if I die trying! When my daughters got to college, I was completely flummoxed by the concepts of catalogs and prerequisites. Faced with something that no one else understands, either, I am a little freaked out. It’s also not just sexual things, but oftentimes disciplinary policies across the board can be lacking in transparency, clarity and fairness. The reason I know this is because I’ve spent the last few weeks researching such policies as the schools babydoll will be considering. I have absolutely no ability to let the chips fall where they may where he is concerned. It’s one thing to understand that the odds are heavily against the false or mistaken accusation being leveled against any kid, but when it’s your kid who is a doofus, you have to really understand that if it happens to anyone, it will much more likely be your kid so the general odds no longer matter anymore. I have a girlriend whose husband abandoned the family in their daughter’s childhood. As a result, the daughter always had a very strong need for masculine attention and validation to the point that her otherwise good judgment flew out the window when a boy noticed her. The mother did therapy and such but it never helped and she made the painful decision, despite her daughter’s excellent academics, that the daughter shouldn’t go away to college immediately because there would be a bullseye on her back because of her issues. I feel the same way about my son. I know there is some growing up to do and I want to be informed and attentive to making sure that he knows about and understands these issues and possible consequences.</p>
<p>Reading CC can make you think that college is a sea of horrible problems, when for the vast majority of kids there are only minor problems. Warnings are a good idea, but they should be balanced by a whole lot of positive talk.</p>