<p>awcntdb - I’ve agreed all along the bill is meaningless - all it did was affirm that no doesn’t mean no in perpetuity - because affirmation must be ongoing - so yes your argument holds - no can be no, but then it can be yes. If anything it weakens the argument that the “yes” was not consensual because it allows for non-verbal consent which can be interpreted in a ton of different ways.</p>
<p>^^ I do hope that you all are correct. I like the no mean no. No doubt on what it means. </p>
<p>However, I am not as sure as you in that one can say no and the do all sorts of affirmative actions leading to sex, including having sex, and then say, “He should have known, as I said an hour before. And oh please ignore all of my affirmative actions after the no.” </p>
<p>It reminds me of the one case where rape was claimed, but the girl was the one who went and got the condom. I just do not see tribunals buying clear affirmative actions, as meaningless, if the law is to be followed. Juries and judges, the same.</p>
<p>In my opinion, it’s not a very well written bill. It suggests, but doesn’t actually say, that the burden will be on the accused to prove that there was consent. There’s also this:
So can prior sexual relations constitute evidence of consent if the accused has additional evidence–such as, he says there was affirmative consent? It’s not clear. Also, the law requires the preponderance of the evidence standard, which I’ve discussed enough already.</p>
<p>I do think the $64,000 question is, “Beyond obvious personal assault crimes, is it even possible to legislate something as dynamic as male-female human relationships to mimic a color-by-number schematic, especially those often temporary relationships corrupted by alcohol?” It may be a fools errand to think we can. I, unfortunately, see laws and behavioral conduct statues simply shifting the field upon which sexual assault and rape is adjudicated, but not affecting whether rape occurs or not. </p>
<p>"It reminds me of the one case where rape was claimed, but the girl was the one who went and got the condom. "</p>
<p>I think in that case, the issue wasn’t whether there was enthusiastic consent, but whether the consent was valid due to intoxication.</p>
<p>^^ You strike to heart of the legislation problem. There needs to be no proof of intoxication, just the statement of the female that she was. There is a huge problem of no proof required and thus, as @actingmt says, no change in the he said, she said scenario. </p>
<p>I am starting to get to the point where to enter a person’s dorm room each person should blow into a breathalyzer with the results linked to their ID. Silly, in my book, but not sure anything else short of outlawing alcohol is going to be effective in reducing these tipsy, drunk sex encounters.</p>
<p>SAVE keeps track of lawsuits, the awards are what colleges have been ordered to pay to accusers or accused.</p>
<p>Accusers, 121 lawsuits, $10.1 million awarded
Accused 141 lawsuits, 25.9 million awarded</p>
<p>and from an August 29…
</p>
<p>I’m getting repetitive, but IMO this bill did zip, zero zilch to advance any traditional women’s causes concerning sexual assault.</p>
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<p>And in fact this is a classic scene in countless movies and bodice-rippers: man grasps woman and kisses her forcefully, she says no and beats her fists against his chest, he persists, she suddenly melts into his arms and kisses him back passionately.</p>
<p>A significant reason, IMHO, why so many behave as if no means maybe if you try again. </p>
<p>ETA: Of course, this is all wrapped up with a lot of stuff around the idea that nice girls don’t like sex enough to seek it out or freely engage in it, they have to be <em>overcome</em> by [his] passion. Also traditionally a reason why some girls would not be using some form of ongoing b/c: that would mean she <em>planned</em> to have sex, rather than being overcome in the moment, and as we know nice girls don’t <em>plan</em> to have sex. And so forth. But these ideas are deeply embedded in the minds of many.</p>
<p>How about the song “Baby, It’s Cold Outside”?</p>
<p>You could read the lyrics in a sinister way, but I don’t. The female character is worried about what other people will think; her own desire is to stay. It certainly fits the bodice-ripping model of changing her mind, though.</p>
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For what it’s worth, in our family we refer to that as “the date rape song.”</p>
<p>(Particularly because of the line, “What’s in this drink?”)</p>