<p>
</p>
<p>Anyone who would want to post such a sign REALLY shouldn’t be attending a Christian College. If there are other parents out there considering where your son/daughter ought to consider, please realize, it honestly needs to be their choice, not yours. You can’t force a true belief on anyone and trying to is probably more likely to push them the other way.</p>
<p>the beat goes on from these 2 …zilch about GCC …only how awful WP is.</p>
<p>Watch Fox sometime. They nightly explain the tactic when there’s no defense? Shoot the messenger. And they trying. 
And now it’s that grumpy young alum who’s the big bad wolf. 
</p>
<p>And when that tactic falters? Use Creekland’s approach …“oh well, there’s always one who’s pee-ohed. don’t anyone listen to him …” And in the meantime, it all comes across as we thinking thou doest protest too much! All the while sharing not a shred of real information. Simply dtruggling to demean those who speak and dirtying themselves in the process.</p>
<p>once more …stick to the college and sharing info. scotty, my little man …since neither you nor creek have any 1st hand experience w/ GCC, why not have your son check in and cheerlead for us? At least his would be closer to reality than a dad trying to justify his need to purchase a, ok, let’s shift it down a notch …a Government Motors, maybe? Chevette? About the same price. One can only speculate about a whole bunch of guilt for going cheap on the boy.:(</p>
<p>It’d be good to hear “the rest of the story.” Absent a diatribe about that nasty ol’ groundhog! 
</p>
<p>WP, you totally misread my post. I think all prospective students and parents SHOULD google interesting colleges and their reviews to see what they are getting into to see if they are a good fit or not. I do the same and have made sure my boys do the same. My only beef is your cherry picking one negative review (an old one at that) and claiming it as gospel - then leading people to somehow believe - even if it is ALL true today - that the education from GCC is lacking due to this alumni’s lack of fit on other issues. </p>
<p>Logic doesn’t work that way no matter how badly you want it to.</p>
<p>I have no personal knowledge of GCC at this point. It didn’t fit my two older boys (as don’t thousands of other colleges). I would still consider it for my youngest if he wanted a major that was offered there. I do know parents of students there (in real life) who are super happy with the place - their students love it too. They don’t mind the restrictions at all. I do know alumni have gone on and done well (including Scotty’s son). Those speak more to me, and should speak more to others, about the level of education than one disgruntled alumni who should never have been forced to attend there in the first place as it wasn’t the right fit for him.</p>
<p>You love Wheaton. In my research I’ve come up with negative reviews of Wheaton as well. Should we post them and then assume they give a poor education due to being a poor fit for someone?</p>
<p>The only thing I got out of your posting that epinion was that parents absolutely should never force a student to attend a college that is not right for them. Forcing a student to a Christian college is not going to make them fall in love with God. Every person has their own choice to make (yes, I believe it is a choice - I’m not Calvinist).</p>
<p>This is exactly why, as an evangelical Christian, I avoid most “Christian” forums.</p>
<p>Here is the key issue–is Grove City College a place where one can obtain an affordable (and high quality) Christian education?</p>
<p>I note that the latest USNews rankings (out today, I believe) puts Grove City in Tier 1 of national liberal arts colleges. (And, in all fairness to WP, Wheaton (#55) is ranked higher than Grove City (#127).)</p>
<p>The title of this thread is “AFFORDABLE Christian Colleges”. I’m suggesting and so is USNews, that Grove City ($13,088 for tuition) provides a Tier 1 national liberal arts education at half the tuition of a Wheaton ($27,580 for tuition).</p>
<p>btw, looking at those rankings …notably, GCC was NOT listed at all among the “best value” schools. Why? prinicipally because while the price tag is cheap, unlike what another proclaims as “high quality” USNWR saw as simply “low cost”. The notion of value embraces bang for the buck. And it would seem the ratings confirm …Hyundai price, GM quality. And indeed, that is useful information and knowing some of the “why’s” for a low ranking. btw, Westminster College, 14 miles down the road, is another Christian college ranked higher than GCC AND listed on the “best values” list as well. </p>
<p>So what IS the real point? Several. One really needs to be discerning and tough when looking at a school that is half the cost of a Wheaton. Again, there is no free lunch. And there are good reasons, many noted here, but mostly focusing on faculty limitations and student - faculty ratios as well. Look at who and how many and where they’ve come from when looking at allegedly “full time” faculty. I doubt the President teaches more than an occasional course nor does he advise any students. Still, he and a whole bunch of other coaches and administrators are listed as “full time fac.” That is not transparent, some might say false advertising and/or simply lying. Not a good thing for an institution proclaiming the Gospel as it’s gospel. </p>
<p>Lastly, the U.S. News lists GCC’s endowment at a very meager $74 million. So, there are really several significant issues to be illumined and drawn from this.</p>
<ol>
<li><p>Even that modest amount would seem to fly in the face of the requirments of the founders that GCC would NOT nurture or be sustained by endowments. And on an endowment/student measure, while it is very low, it could be running contrary to the founding fathers demands. btw, unless it’s been removed, this is noted in the history on the web.</p></li>
<li><p>There is no real Pew largesse that is responsible for the low price tag.</p></li>
<li><p>The school’s omission from the “best values” is in part because of the school’s limited capacity to provide need-based F/A.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>Lastly, as scotty notes, if cost is the issue, and FA is unlikely, GCC merits consideration. But none should dare compare it on quality issues, notably its instructional programs and staffs. Especially with the likes of a Wheaton. No doubt, as noted by me and others along this thread, many enjoy their experience and do well as they depart. As they should. They are all intelligent, and it’s reasonable to assume that no matter how large the classes may be or utilitarian the faculty may be, those students, now grads, will still be smart.</p>
<p>Here is a listing of Grove City’s mechanical engineering faculty: </p>
<p>Dr. Blair T. Allison, Chair of the Department of Mechanical Engineering and Professor of Engineering
Education: B.S., Carnegie Mellon University; M.S., Ph.D., Massachusetts Institute of Technology.</p>
<p>Dr. Erik J. Anderson, Assistant Professor of Mechanical Engineering
Education: B.S., Gordon College; M.S., St. Francis Xavier University; Ph.D. Massachusetts Institute of Technology.</p>
<p>Dr. C. Mark Archibald, Professor of Mechanical Engineering
Education: University of Alabama; B.S.M.E., University of Alabama at Huntsville; M.S.M.E., Ph.D., Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University.</p>
<p>Dr. Erik R. Bardy, Assistant Professor of Mechanical Engineering
Education: B.S., M.S., Ph.D., University of Buffalo.</p>
<p>Dr. Stacy G. Birmingham, Dean for the Albert A. Hopeman, Jr., School of Science, Engineering and Mathematics, Professor of Mechanical Engineering
Education: B.S.C.E., M.S., Ph.D., Carnegie Mellon University.</p>
<p>Dr. Michelle A. Clauss, Professor of Mechanical Engineering
Education: B.S., Grove City College; Ph.D., Carnegie Mellon University.</p>
<p>Dr. Mark Reuber, Professor of Mechanical Engineering
Education: B.E., M.E., Carleton University; Ph.D., University of Illinois at Chicago; Yale University. Professional Engineer in Pennsylvania.</p>
<p>Dr. Vernon W. Ulrich, Associate Professor of Mechanical Engineering
Education: B.S., Bridgewater College; M.S., Ph.D., University of Virginia.</p>
<p>Two from MIT; two from Carnegie Mellon; one from Yale. Yep, that’s the look of a mediocre faculty. Also, Dr. Reuber did do some work as the coordinator of study abroad, and he does an excellent job of both teaching and doing this. My son profited greatly from his study abroad in France (and developed a love for fountain pens by studying near the Waterman pen factory). This “double duty” actually was of great benefit to my son’s educational experience.</p>
<p>As for “best value,” I’m not sure how USNews does their rankings because they ranked GCC their #1 best value in their category in 2007. Since then, GCC has been stepped up to the elite schools in the national liberal arts category. Perhaps there is something there or something in the formula that has changed. Several other rankings place GCC in their best value categories, but I have not examined the 2011 data very carefully.</p>
<p>Haven’t posted on here in a couple years. WP is still tooting the same horn, with the same tired diatribe? Amazing, and sad. It wouldn’t matter, except that when you search the internet for info on GCC his sheer volume of words makes him show up on the list. </p>
<p>Let it be known that Creekland and Wildwoodscott are spot on. My son graduates this year with an ME degree, and what he’s learned there is more thorough and balanced than the education I got (25-30 years ago) at the University of Washington and Stanford in the same subject, and with his faith intact. Grove City College has been a very positive and high quality place to learn.</p>
<p>yea yea, that doggone ol’ WP! Darn keeps bringing up the notion that GCC has an issue with its faculty …since 1963! Censored by the nation’s for going on 50 years, 5 decades, a half century! Now that’s something to wonder about and to which none speak. Just shoot the messenger. Typical response when there is none beyond the obvious.</p>
<p>Now, if we wanna know who has skin in this issue, just look to scotty and luke’s dear old dad, working to ensure that their familial decison to buy a Hyundai for their bright lads when they mighta gone to a top-shelf engineering school …well, lots of guilt to go 'round here.</p>
<p>But back to the issue. Why does GCC mislead about it’s teaching faculty? Why does the AAUP see them as a chronically deficient employer of scholars? Why are students threatened with expulsion for walking on the grass??? </p>
<p>Answers not potshots …that’s what discerning parents and students would like. But still no 1st hand accounts …only defenses of a low-ball purchase, it seems, and name-calling.</p>
<p>btw, anyone who compares engineering education from 30 years ago, no matter where, to current day engineering education must be delusional. The field has been identified as one of the top 3 fields of work where information is essentially out of date within 5 years of graduation. Check out Olin if one is wondering about this one. Continuing education in engineering is a major educational issue. </p>
<p>Have “all” those GCC ME profs written anything scholarly of late? Any presentations at professional societies? Do GCC profs even attend these scholarly gatherings? Inquiring minds are dying to know.</p>
<p>I would think that a conservative like WP would find that censure by AAUP would be an honor rather than a point of ill repute. Founders Lovejoy and Dewey established the AAUP in order to gain a dominant liberal perspective in academia, and they were largely successful. That Grove City goes against the grain of this organization and its view of tenure says nothing about how GCC treats its faculty; it says everything about the way in which Grove City College will perserve its Christian perspective. Faculty members will not be allowed to stay to undermine what has happened at practically every other school of similar age, as WP has pointed out in other posts. I do not understand why WP would try to use this against the school, when in other posts he laments how schools have lost their bearings.</p>
<p>Lukesfan was not comparing primarily the CONTENT of what was taught in comparing his education with his son’s. He was comparing the QUALITY of teaching. I can vouch the same with the quality of teaching at GCC compared to my undergrad engineering education at the University of Illinois (in the #1 ranked department in the nation at the time).</p>
<p>As for scholarly writing and presentations at professional societies, the website lists papers presented by faculty. In any event, at the undergrad level, the important thing in engineering education is not the number of papers published, but the quality of teaching. As an engineering grad, I know what I’m talking about. And it looks like Lukesdad does too. It is the difference between attending an engineering research institution and an engineering teaching institution. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. Lukesdad and I, coming from ERI’s and having children who attended ETI’s, are in a unique position to evaluate those advantages and disadvantages.</p>
<p>For those interested in a serious description of these issues, it might prove insightful to go to the following “scholarly article” by Grove City mechanical engineering professor Stacy Birmingham: <a href=“http://www.icee.usm.edu/icee/conferences/asee2007/papers/1874_LEAVING_TENURE_BEHIND__LESSONS_LEARNED.pdf[/url]”>http://www.icee.usm.edu/icee/conferences/asee2007/papers/1874_LEAVING_TENURE_BEHIND__LESSONS_LEARNED.pdf</a>
which was presented at the American Society for Engineering Education in 2007.</p>
<p>So …now scotty chooses to shoot at the national body of faculty because they’ve determined GCC has some major problems as an employer of scholars, including engineering faculty …</p>
<p>But in previous posts proclaims how wonderful the handful of teachers are relative to that same faculty universe.</p>
<p>Wow, an intriguing approach to defending and apologizing for a cheap purchase. But the logic fails; can’t have it both ways. Either those faculty suck and GCC’s don’t …or they’re more right than wrong and GCC’s are simply good-hearted guys (mostly) willing to teach on the cheap because it was all they could land. And in any case, they’ll never have to publish a paper in a refereed journal to get tenure …because there is none!</p>
<p>And while we can all agree that the sticker is low-ball lovely, again,there is a reason. And I suspect thru this all we’ve figured it out …fewer faculty teaching and advising more students and classes and being paid and secured inappropriately according to the nation’s engineering profs and other disciplines. That’s simple reality …and it has been for 50 years now, and so obviously GCC governors have said …“we don’t really care, and besides consumers are either too stupid to know what we’re doing and thus what they’re getting for their tuition dollar …or they simply don’t care because it all looks good (especially that grass that stays nice and requires less maintenance that we don’t wanna pay anyway because we don’t have the money) and we can even count on the parental cheapskates who are too simple to grasp the issues anyway to go out on CC and tout how wonderful the educational experience may be.” Whew! ;)</p>
<p>And the notion that writing and publishing in professional engineering journals is unimportant relative to teaching is simply silly and ignorant. It’s been noted that the engineering profession is in a sorry state of affairs, and profs teaching from syllabi inscribed on papyrus scrolls in the first year of teaching 30 or even 5 years past …well, that fails to fly. </p>
<p>But …like when I bought a cheap Chevy Nova absent carpet and w/ 3 speed on the column, I whined, “hey a good car that got me back and forth.”</p>
<p>And so it may be w/ a GCC degree? Ain’t no free lunch. And all that glitters …or is green …may just be grass that none are allowed to tred on absent the threat of being booted back to the 'Burgh. :eek:</p>
<p>Criticizing AAUP and its standards relative to the issue of tenure is not inconsistent with a view of the fine faculty at Grove City. Again, the assertion that criticism of AAUP is somehow a criticism of faculty at other institutions does not follow logically. I can only conclude that WP perhaps does not have an engineering degree, certainly does not know engineering at the undergraduate level, and apparently did not read Dr. Birmingham’s fine paper (published in a scholarly journal) on the nuances of the kinds of education available at engineering research institutions and engineering teaching institutions. The assertion that the Grove City College engineering program teaches antiquated stuff is simply wrong, and the ABET people (the organization that accredits engineering programs) agree that GCC has a fine engineering program.</p>
<p>I feel sympathy for WP–I truly do. When I do not understand a person, I have learned that there is something more to a person than is being revealed. May God bless WP abundantly and in every way.</p>
<p>Save your sympathy, scooter. It’s fully understandable that you run your arguments in circles attempting to justify and rationalize one of the major purchases of any parent’s economic life. We understand fully your needs. We’ve all been where you are, not being able to afford buyer’s remorse in something that cannot be mulliganed. And that has been purchased and impacted our most precious gifts of life, more so than you and me. We must live with these determinations, no re-do’s. </p>
<p>Now, let me say …it is fine that you and many have chosen a GCC purchase. But attempting to justify, explain, or discuss that purchase in comparing it to virtually every other academic institution and notably in the disciplines of engineering and technical sciences is ludicrous. It’s like saying a moped scooter (and it might be a very fine, cute little mode of transport, at least on sunny, warm days and it was in purchasing it and operating it highly economical) is somehow analogous to buying a Mercedes, BMW, Ford … or maybe even a Hyundai automobile. Apples and oranges. Mopeds and Mercedes.</p>
<p>No, it is what it is. But please don’t try to persuade or brow-beat folks by name-calling or circular illogic into thinking the moped’s somehow equal to that Mercedes. They are simply beasts of a different color. A misuse of the language, perhaps. And we’re getting plenty of lessons on the import of defining words, aren’t we.</p>
<p>And that is the real issue. That GCC as a Christian institution, allegedly committed to honoring our Lord JC by first loving Him and second loving one’s neighbor’s green grass as much as its own …must begin to tout not merely that it’s cheap and takes no stimulus monies …but that the powers there have somehow discovered a way to offer the same thing at a fraction of the cost. </p>
<p>Why haven’t they? Why don’t they? It’s simply because the genuine issues cannot be exposed to light. They cannot afford to let people know these truths. </p>
<p>Even in the world that our Creator created, it is pure fantasy to think one gets something for nothing. (Even while some describe the gift of Christian faith as “free”, JC was clear that it was the most expensive “gift” we’d ever receive, paying with one’s literal life.) Or even grossly less. The silence from the shadowy banks of Wolf Creek is deafening. Seems Christian charity, clarity, and truth only goes so far. </p>
<p>In any case, agree or disagree with the issues posited in this discussion, the service to readers is providing 2 very disparate views of an interesting situation very pertinent in a day and age where college costs are sky-rocketing and one place seem to have somehow found some magic formula that in the end has no more principle underlying that formula beyond paying fewer folks of arguably lesser credentials to do more for more for a whole lot less. It’s economics, not patriotism, politics, or some weird interpretation on the Christian faith. (Note: This says nothing about the conviction and/or commitment of those laborers relative to a Christian calling. But that’s a personal issue known to none but each prof and his Maker.) </p>
<p>So, let readers be the wiser for knowing and assessing whether the GCC experience is fools gold or 24K. I’m betting people sufficiently capable and who can and will afford examining this carefully, thoughtfully, honestly, sincerely, even prayerfully … will determine for themselves and their children their own realities and truth.</p>
<p>But let’s be sure of one thing…Truth to be truth must be the same for all. Or it’s not Truth. So only one of these opposing positions has the potential for Truth. Readers decide.</p>
<p>WP does not respond to my actual message. He merely repeats what he has said many, many times–that GCC has some dark conspiracy, that GCC is a cheap and inferior education, that GCC is weird for having campus traditions, that he somehow has secret knowledge that GCC is not truly Christian. These are specious accusations without merit. My experience with my son, his colleagues, the faculty, and the staff all point to a very different picture.</p>
<p>Namely, Grove City College provides an excellent education at a great price in a truly Christian environment.</p>
<p>Note that WP must not be an engineering grad. Note that he did not respond to Dr. Birmingham’s article, or he would have interacted with a very balanced “scholarly” article on the relative merits of two very different kinds of undergraduate engineering education. Note that when I effectively answer an objection, WP conveniently ignores the response and merely recapitulates his assertions (like the AAUP issue, where, unbelievably, WP has put himself in the box of defending John Dewey’s educational philosophy!). Note that when I point to the prestige of the faculty at GCC–two with Ph.D.s from MIT; 2 from Carnegie Mellon; one from Yale, etc.–that WP simply asserts that they have “arguably lesser credentials”!</p>
<p>As an engineering graduate of a very “prestigious” engineering research institution (the University of Illinois) and having a son who graduated from GCC in engineering, I can say unequivocally that my son received better teaching, better interaction with real Ph.D.'s, better research opportunities, better internships, better study abroad opportunities, and better Christian examples.</p>
<p>On this WP and I agree–we cannot both be correct. Readers must decide. How about it readers? Enough of WP’s “is not” and my “is too”. I’d like to hear from folks–who has made the better case on this thread entitled, “Affordable Christian Colleges”?</p>
<p>And I will still offer my humble sympathy to WP. Something clearly went awry for him to have such emotion about a school that he proclaims absolutely no relationship.</p>
<p>sorry scooter (btw, you can talk to me directly. ;)) …no dog in this hunt beyond intrigue, analyses, and getting the truth of the matter. And for the 37th time, please, no pandering false humility from you nor any persistent personal attacks nor attempts to be falsely magnanimous in offering any alleged “sympathy.” That’s simply disingenuous and dishonest, might we agree. Stick to the issues, which you’re genuinely helping to expose so readily and fully, of Grove City. But this isn’t about me, and it’s only about you to the degree that you are chronically compelled to rationalize, apologize, and excuse your purchase for your good son. And again, your purchase is your choice. God gave us that freedom. And so happy you’re happy with your decision and your rationale for doing so, post facto. But trying to explicitly or implicitly persuade others via a public forum that your decision is analogous to sending your bright son to MIT or GA Tech or Rose-Hulman or Pitt or Olin or any number of top-shelf engineering schools simply because GCC has nice guys who go to church and proclaim Christ as their savior, as I trust and presume you and I do …well, that needs to be called what it is. A nice moped maybe, but not even close to a Rose-Hulman education. </p>
<p>And what’s the proof? “My son liked it and is doing well.” Now that’s fine and nice knowing …and illumines not one single issue about engineering or other aspects of a GCC education beyond this …His son is bright and capable of learning. And did. And you know, he would have done the very same in many places. But the evidence of what one generally purchases via GCC tuition dollars is not so enticing or exciting. </p>
<p>Lastly, please don’t use an anecdote about one prof …btw, is Stacy B. the dean or a teaching instructor? Both/and I’d guess. You illustrate perfectly that many hats must be worn by all in the GCC model, even to the extent of listing all the VPs, deans, chaplain, football coaches (and all others, too) and the President as “full-time teaching faculty.” (See the GCC catalog.) Your point vividly illustrates one of the critical components of the GCC moped …everyone must do everything. Now, you call that a good thing. I call it what it is …not preferable, undesirable, and essential when any college decides to do more for more with less. And that’s GCC’s not-so-magic formula, it seems. </p>
<p>Again, the issue here is exposing and explaining the manner in which GCC can and does charge half of what Wheaton charges and a 3rd of what most tier 1 LACs charge. Now that’s very intriguing we all might agree and enticing when pondering paying for this major purchase. </p>
<p>But the truth once again is that in the end, beyond some nice campus window dressing, a lonely anecdotal scholarly reference to a single administrator/faculty member in ME, no explanation for why the engineering and other disciplinary faculty nationwide view GCC as a less-than-satisfactory employer of qualified faculty …for 50 years and counting!, a ho-hum chuckle and denial of what a GCC alum proclaims about the potential banishment for walking on the grass!!! (are you kidding! sadly, not), and a chronic attempt to simply shoot the messenger rather than attempt to explain and/or excuse the model …</p>
<p>And again, the ultimate issue is mission and self-proclaimed label of being a “Christian college.” There ought to be a proof-of-purchase required when students are admitted,like buying a penny stock or a mutual fund that promises extraordinary, gawdy returns. What we always find out …cooked books.</p>
<p>btw, I am wondering …is a $74 million endowment for a 2,500 student body … a little, a lot, or otherwise? How might we guage that? And ok, diminish the AAUP and consequently the entire faculty of virtually all those campuses (especially those you’ve tried to tell us …“look where they got their credentials!”), but try to explain why the Princeton Review and other 3rd parties view Grove City as merely “cheap” and not a top “value.” </p>
<p>And that’s the real message …again. We get what we pay for.</p>
<p>I am not attempting to be pandering or falsely humble. I am interested in genuine interaction and understanding of others. And despite WP’s thoughts that my expressions of sympathy for him are “disingenuous” and “dishonest,” I assure him and all others that I am being as sincere as I can be.</p>
<p>I am confused. WP asked for examples of professors at GCC who wrote and published in scholarly journals. I provided it, and the article directly addressed the concern of the quality of education at engineering research institutions and engineering teaching institutions. How is that an “anecdote” that ought not to be used?? Why is WP shifting the burden of proof he himself initially presented?</p>
<p>Similarly, WP dismisses my son’s experience and attempts to make the burden of proof all engineering graduates, insinuating that other students would not have performed so well. In other words, keep moving the burden of proof until it cannot be known (I must confess that I do not know, with precision, the outcome of all GCC graduates!). Then, proclaim that because statistics cannot be presented which refute precisely the strangest assertions, the strange assertions are true. That’s just nonsensical.</p>
<p>I also don’t understand the reference to the Princeton Review. Grove City College is listed in their book entitled, “The BEST 373 Colleges”.</p>
<p>yoo hoo…scooteroo …I am here, you may talk to me rather than like I’m deaf or comatose or scuba diving or whatever …no need to address ol’ WP like he’s unable to read.</p>
<p>But in any case, you are being disingenuous and dishonest. How do we know? If you’re genuinely interested in establishing some kind of “relationship” with me, that’s why CC has granted you PM privileges. No, I trust you want others to know what you’re intending for me to know. Fine, but just say so, but don’t be gratuitous by sending me public love letters, please. I’m available on PM anytime. </p>
<p>To the faculty scholarship issue …while there may be some more, your example is anecdotal. Tell us how many books, refereed journal articles, presentations made at professional meetings …not one by a full-time dean/professor. (Which is it, btw?)</p>
<p>You state “unequivocally” your son got a superior education to your Illini experience of many moons back. Perhaps he’s brighter? Perhaps he worked harder? What are your observations? Those might be of some insight and value for prospectives. But in any case, your point is an opinion you may hold, having experienced yours and hearing from your son about his. But it is not fact. Merely opinion, and merely yours. No evidence to back it up, and no doubt a great many would debate your assessment. (And if so, those too would be merely opinions. We’ve all got 'em.) But I’d be willing to wager that by virtually every measureable assessment, your alma mater’s faculty, students and track records would put GCC to shame. </p>
<p>Yes, GCC’s in the book of 373 and that’s great. You may want to look at the individual assessments and rankings of The Princeton Review. And also U.S. News and World Report, the most cited and original evaluations. GCC is not included among the colleges of greatest value, which is a far different consideration than cost/pricing. GCC wins on the latter, loses on the former, according to the experts. (Yep, we can and should discuss the merits of these beauty contests, but if you’re going to use them, then picking and choosing specific information won’t work.) </p>
<p>But …you expose a very interesting fact in your earlier point …that definitely merits some consideration. You note …GCC was listed as the #1 college value in the 2007 USNWR rankings. And now, a mere 3 years hence, it is not even among the top 40. What’s up? As we all know, sometimes trends are far more revealing than momentary measures. Any idea(s)?</p>
<p>And so it goes for the faculty issue. Either the traditional measures for assessing merit and quality of the professoriate are used which must then include all the traditional standards of evaluating them as a whole …those things that the academic disciplines look at …scholarly activity (research, writing, presentations, teaching awards, consulting reputation and recognition, etc. etc.), assessment of currentness in one’s field (critical in a field like ME; as I’m sure you’d agree, you are a modern-day dinosaur), peer reviews and plaudits, inclusion on eval teams and groups, and on and on and on. GCC, I’d suspect, chronically falls flat on virtually all measures. </p>
<p>But …if you’re proclaiming that these things don’t matter, denigrating the AAUP, John Dewey, and the traditional academic establishment …that’s fine and understandable. In fact, that’s my fundamental contention, if you’d not noticed. Indeed, GCC chooses to ignore these issues. That obviously impacts who they can and will hire as well as those who would agree to work there. This is a critical element.</p>
<p>Now, if the argument is …but look at the fine students who go there and who find fair work upon graduating …well, this is purely a function of cost, not creed. And the REASON the cost is low is because of the economic model and more specifically the 50 year assessment of the nation’s faculty members …GCC requires too much of too few for too many for too little remuneration and no security. That’s it in a nutshell.</p>
<p>So does this impact students? Of course it does. All we want is an honest assessment of how so. Good, bad, otherwise. </p>
<p>And all we get is cheerleading motivated by the fact that the farm’s already been bought and now we need to do all we can to make sure others see it as a barn worth buying and keeping our prize bull in …</p>
<p>But all we hear is "ah, ol’ WP is mean. He must have been declined admission to Wolfe Creek Tech. :eek: (not ) He must be an atheist or an agnostic. Surely he’s not reborn enough to be a Grover. He’d prbly just pee on our gorgeous grass if he’d matriculated. (maybe …) </p>
<p>btw, can you share, scoots, did you contribute to the Parents Fund when Junior was there? How about now? How much? More n a token? Doesn’t Scripture tell us …where a man’s checkbook is, that’s where his heart is too? Proof’s in the pesos, amigo! </p>
<p>but let’s get to your fine son’s experiences …you’ve made the claims. Now here’s your chance to offer more than platitudes and a “let’s go GCC wolf-ereens!” holler …</p>
<p>btw, you’re right, neither you nor I know how others might perform. But we DO know how yours did. Go with that. He did well. Do you think he would have done well at Illini? But my point is, as you’ve confirmed, it illustrates absolutely nothing about GCC, beyond your delight for his time there. Only about your fine lad. Congrats, btw. You are and should be proud, especially if he’s done well in spite of this all. jk …</p>
<p>I think this forum needs moderator action, and the GCC argument should be moved to its own thread at the least.</p>
<p>It certainly has NOTHING to do with the original question about affordable Christian schools.</p>
<p>I agree, susgeek. I’m done for this forum. However, I will continue to promote the great education that GCC offers in a Christian environment at a great price in other forums. And that was the original intent of this forum–to identify affordable Christian colleges.</p>
<p>The reason that I’ve attempted to avoid directly addressing WP and kept to the issues that he presents is so that all will see that I am not personally attacking him, as he has suggested many times.</p>
<p>Please look at Crown College (just outside of Minneapolis). It’s a great Christian college for academics and spiritual formation. [Crown</a> College - A Private Christian College in Minnesota](<a href=“http://www.crown.edu%5DCrown”>http://www.crown.edu)</p>