African-American and Minority Students at LACs

Parents Forum
61

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But I don't take their experience to mean that a critical mass of black students is unimportant.

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<p>It's very hard for me to disagree with that foolishpleasure -- to a point. Depending on who, what, when, and where, this can also be as slippery a slope as anything else. D1's school has a pretty sizable Black student population. While beneficial, having some strength in numbers, she also observes that this sizable Black community unintentionally nurtures some unfortunate social inhibitors. She was a Peer Advisor and found it very difficult to get some to branch out into other areas, other social arenas, broader organizations, etc. Being heavily involved in student government, and several ad hoc groups initiated by the President's office, she had a birdseye view of how Black students were missing out on opportunites around campus due to the being so insular at times. She often tried to communicate this informally amongst friends and through some of the organizations in which she was involved. The response she recieved, from more than a few (but by no means, most), was to find herself the subject of some pretty sharp criticisms. The consequence of running in very broad and eclectic social circles her counterparts either didn't accept or didn't understand, was to have her own values and motives unfairly challenged. She was hurt by this, and you better believe we shared some long conversations, well into the night, trying to reconcile what she was experiencing. </p>

<p>So, while I agree that achieving an appreciable critical mass is more desirable than not, I am far from sold on giving it much priority. The unfortunate truth is that our social dynamics, borne of a horribly tumultuous history, are not always a reliable source of comfort or support. Sometimes the markers that promise a friendly oasis not only fail to deliver, but if we are not careful, can even hinder.</p>

62

<p>"Oh, sure. People date outside their race all the time."</p>

<p>But it's much more difficult for black women to do this. Unfortunately, the way most black women look isn't admired by most males in the U.S. </p>

<p>It's very easy for black men to date outside their race just as it's easy for Asian women to date outside their race as both groups are considered extremely attractive and sexually appealing to people outside of their race. Of course, since whites are the standards in this country, it's easy for whites to date outside of their race.</p>

<p>According to the Census, 45 percent of black women in America have never been married, compared with 23 percent of white women.</p>

63

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FLVDAD, can you share any thoughts about your D's view of the dating scene?

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<p>Shrink, I doubt I'm much help on that subject. As you might imagine, even under the best circumstances as doting father, I have some difficulties coming to terms with the whole dating thing. But I recognize it's important to their happiness and enjoyment of life so I do my best to be helpful within reason. Which brings me to what I'm about to say. </p>

<p>With the crisis we face in our community, dating has necessarily become a family affair for us. My wife and I actively prospect when the opportunity presents itself, to help our daughters meet people they might not otherwise encounter on their own. This has helped. They do meet people on their own too, of course, but they tell me they feel their options are generally limited. There are just so many pitfalls. Although the topic, as well as opportunities, have come up a number of times, none of them have dated outside their race - yet.</p>

64

<p>^^ So that's why I find my friend's Asian father and African-American mother so unusual. It's a gender-flopped pairing.</p>

65

<p>"Oh, sure. People date outside their race all the time. I would think many black kids (and perhaps other minorities as well) would at least like the option of dating in their own race."</p>

<p>Cindysphinx, I could't agree with you more - - and I have often crunched the numbers, just as you have, when White parents have insisted that my decision to bypass an otherwise good-match school b/c of low black enrollment. </p>

<p>I also agree w/ FLVADAD about the campus black community being insular and sometimes missing out on opptys. That too is a reason for looking at cross-race social groups - -where there are fewer subtle pressures to self-segregate. </p>

<p>At the same thime, however, I appreciate that D's experience having attended predom White pvt schools her entire life makes her far more comfortable in interracial groups than perhaps the majority of black students. Those black students may need the more insular community as security blanket, to make a transition that our D's have already made. I also accept that making the transition may result in missing out on some other valuable campus experiences. But college is not the same experience for all and making that transition is at least as important for them as campus activities are to my D. My only concern would be that the black student community not be so insular or closed that D would feel uncomfortable participating in activities outside that community.</p>

66

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That too is a reason for looking at cross-race social groups - -where there are fewer subtle pressures to self-segregate.

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<p>I'd be interested to know where you have found this to exist. I know it does. But personally, I have only found that type of environment at some very elite schools, and even then, precious few in number.</p>

67

<p>How would you measure this? Would it be a relative thing? For example my D does NOT seem to socialize primarily with other Blacks at her school, does participate in one primarily Black choir, her closest friends seem to be Asian, and the two or three Black friends she introduced me to are two or three more than she's ever had before. Could be more than she'd have at a LAC.</p>

68

<p>it seems to depend on climate.
For instance my younger D thought about attending two different Seattle area schools, each had a well represented minority( which was actually the majority) base. </p>

<p>However- at one school, there was a lot of pressure on students to " stay with their group" this came from the students, and I realize that it may change by year, at the other school, the one she decided to attend, she had several different groups of friends and there was a lot of intermixing between them.
Much different social scene.</p>

69

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How would you measure this? Would it be a relative thing?

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<p>I don't think you can measure something like that. Like some other aspects of the college selection process, I think it's more of a subjective, visceral, sense of things. In conjunction, talking to as many people as you can. Unfortunately, I think it can also be fluid. In the end, I think it's just following ones instincts and then hoping for the best.</p>

70

<p>Yes, measuring cross-race socializing is subjective, visceral, fluid and not always accurate. But that's true of a prospects attempt at assessing also any aspect of residential college life based on the snap-shop one gets on the tour or overnight visit. And yes, as with most aspect of college selection, you folllow your instincts and hope for the best. </p>

<hr>

<p>"I have only found that type of environment at some very elite schools, and even then, precious few in number."</p>

<p>That may be true; D1's search was pretty much limited to top 20, liberal LAC. D2 is a junior and hasn't begun the visit/interview process in earnest, but a number of the schools on her list are southern, less competitive and have larger black enrollment than the schools on D1's list. I'll keep you posted as we investigate this entirely different group of schools.</p>

71

<p>Great posts, all, on the issue of numbers and dating. My D2 who is a HS senior is biracial and not recognized immediately as "black" by non-blacks. It's not because her skin is extremely light; it's more because of her features and hair. She's been mistaken for everything from Columbian to Brazilian (cafe au lait complexion with Caucasian features) to Greek to Asian Indian. She went through a junior year phase in which she bleached her hair blond. In one class early in junior year, a class made up of kids she didn't know, the teacher got into a topic about the history of blacks in America. One of my D2's female classmates sitting right next to my D, said to the teacher "why do we have to talk about this? There are no African Americans in this class." </p>

<p>Past that phase, my D's hair is back to its natural black. But she's been raised in almost all-white environments her entire life, even though she's always attended public schools. Her male suitors have all been white. But to her credit, she is fully cognizant of and embraces her "mixed" heritage. When asked, she willingly joined her former junior high school's African American Heritage Club. They needed her; there were only four members before she joined--the only black kids in the school. What I'm saying is, my D has not grown up around blacks but she would never shun them or not want to be associated with groups of black students. What she would find frustrating and hurtful is peer pressure from blacks who are not used to mixing extensively with whites to restrict herself to a black social circle or be ostracized/critized as punishment. I find the idea of the black-themed "house/dorm" on some campuses puzzling. Is this why MLK marched and died--so blacks could resegregate themselves after integrating the campuses?</p>

<p>Frankly, I don't know what to do about this dating thing. Unlike FLVADAD I don't know any other black families (within 700 miles anyway) with sons to make such introductions. But my D has never complained about not having black guys to date. I don't know what to do about this and the whole college thing. Sure, I dated (and married) out of my race. But I was a rebel, back in the day, openly dismissive of "tradition" and social convention. Times have changed. I don't know how much to factor in the whole dating thing with my kids and how much to weight it as a factor in a college decision. </p>

<p>The whole thing about social circles and being black on campus today, especially with regard to dating, is very confusing.</p>

72

<p>I agree Plainsman, when we looked at Clark years ago, many of their minorities were from out of the country and they got quite a bit of money directed toward them also. It is nice to be mulit-cultural, but it is somewhat deceiving to say you have 3% black when most aren't from this country.
I know a Hatitian student that used to bristle to be called "black" and others would want him to join clubs geared to that. He felt there were differences beyond skin color and didn't want to be seen that way. Whether you agree with his outlook or not, I don't see any reason why "International" can't be seperated from American students.</p>

<p>My children grew up in a multi-cultural neighborhood and school, a wonderful environment I didn't have growing up. When one went to college, all of a sudden it was "join this group" just because of skin color. Sometimes the pressure can be great, but with all the blending of our society, skin color alone doesn't make you alike and sometimes causes its own friction. It isn't an easy thing, everyone is so different. I agree in 2008, to have someone tell you that you aren't "black" if you don't join a black theme house or like Rap music, is silly.</p>

73

<p>"What I'm saying is, my D has not grown up around blacks but she would never shun them or not want to be associated with groups of black students. What she would find frustrating and hurtful is peer pressure from blacks who are not used to mixing extensively with whites to restrict herself to a black social circle or be ostracized/critized as punishment. "</p>

<p>^^ D1 has refused to join the black student group on her campus (she was personally invited several times), but there has been no criticism or ostracism b/c on her campus, cross-racial socializing is not uncommon. There are enough black students that there is little or no pressue on individual students to join and boost the group's numbers. Likewise, the White students are generally (though not universally) welcoming.</p>

<p>I am still saddend, however, becasue I fear D is drawing correct, or unfair, inferences regarding the other black students. I think that D looked at the friendship networks of the other blacks students and mistakenly believed that if she joined threre would be an expectation that she socialize primarily within that group, which is not what she wanted. D also saw the pre-orientation program for black students as too separatist for her. In this case, I think she failed to appreciate that for other students, many of whom were not as comfortable in White environments as she was, the all black 4-day program and the balck student group itself, were safe havens. </p>

<p>I think D was a bit hasty, and maybe harsh, in judging the other black students, but she is young, and entitled to travel her own path and make her own mistakes. Fortunately, there are no apparent hard feelings on either side and D, who is very social, has a large circle of friends that is quite diverse (race, class, geog, sexual pref, intl'l, etc). That's a large part of what she wanted and certainly part of what I wanted for her, so I can't really complain. But her experience reminds me that even when we get what we want, it isn't exactly what we want. </p>

<p>FLVADAD, I'm gonna take a page from your book and start bringin' home some nice young brothers for D to meet!</p>

74

<p>" D also saw the pre-orientation program for black students as too separatist for her. In this case, I think she failed to appreciate that for other students, many of whom were not as comfortable in White environments as she was, the all black 4-day program and the balck student group itself, were safe havens. "</p>

<p>They also may have been welcome ways of making connections within their race for students who, as was the case with me, went to college after living in all white environments. </p>

<p>My experience at Harvard was that many black students who participated mainly in the black organizations had never before had the opportunity of interacting with many students of their own race. For instance, when I entered high school, I was the first black student in the 1,500-student high school that served my town.</p>

<p>Many such people after college, happily worked in very integrated environments, and chose to have friends of all races. </p>

<p>From what I've seen with S at his overwhelmingly white LAC, it's possible to have involvement with the black student organization while also having friends of all races and being involved in other organizations. S hasn't mentioned any pressure to only do things with black peers. The black students I've seen on his campus seem comfortable with people of all races.</p>

<p>H attended a LAC, and was active in the Black Student Union as well as many mainstream campus organizations, including his choosing to room with white friends.</p>

75

<p>"She was a Peer Advisor and found it very difficult to get some to branch out into other areas, other social arenas, broader organizations, etc. Being heavily involved in student government, and several ad hoc groups initiated by the President's office, she had a birdseye view of how Black students were missing out on opportunites around campus due to the being so insular at times. "</p>

<p>While it's easy to see when black students aren't involved in mainstream activities, from what I've seen, on many campuses students of all races tend to stick to the familiar. S. for instance, has been surprised that at his LAC, there are many interesting activities such as guest speakers, films, etc., but as few as 15 students will go to those events.</p>

<p>At the community college where I'm taking classes for fun, the students in my acting class only bother to go to the plays on campus because the teacher made it a class assignment. To my surprise some students -- white, and obviously from middle class backgrounds -- had not been to the theater before, and weren't sure how to behave.</p>

<p>The only socializing that many students do is going to parties and football games.</p>

<p>So, it's not just black students who stick with their own kind and don't branch out into doing a variety of activities.</p>

<p>Even in the real world, I've noticed that most people hang around in circles of people who are extremely similar to themselves, and do a narrow swath of activities if they do anything in addition to work and possibly going to church.</p>

76

<p>Northstarmom: Sounds like the best way to do it. Don't run from who you are, but mix with who you want.</p>

77

<p>Great posts, as usuual, NSM.</p>

78

<p>
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So, it's not just black students who stick with their own kind and don't branch out into doing a variety of activities.

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<p>Yes, this is true, I agree. Hopefully, you didn't think I was inferring otherwise. My intention was not to isolate or typecast AA student behaviors as being distinct from other groups. It was just an example of why, notwithstanding certain conditions, I don't necessarily find more or less comfort regarding the suitability of a particular school based on how many AA students are enrolled. </p>

<p>I did not always think this way, and I understand why many consider it an important aspect. I also understand that different students have different needs from one to another depending on various factors. Nonetheless, I think many AA students are missing out on quality financial and educational opportunities by avoiding LACs on the basis of insufficient AA enrollment. In fact, I find some of those with the greatest potential to benefit from an intimate academic environment tend to be the least likely to attend such schools. For some, I think this is unfortunate considering that the social realities and comforts of attending a school with a larger AA population are not always as beneficial as perceived. </p>

<p>Again, I realize the latter is largely subject to the personal qualities of the specific individual.</p>

79

<p>My best friend in my first year at the ginormous state university I attended was a guy I met in my first-year Chinese class. I knew him by sight from high school debate meets, although I don't think we had ever had a conversation before the first day of class in college. We became fast friends, and discovered we were both members of the same religious denomination, had similar opinions on politics, and had a lot of similar career aspirations. Oh, yeah, I am white and he is black. I went to college hoping to make discoveries like that.</p>

80

<p>"Nonetheless, I think many AA students are missing out on quality financial and educational opportunities by avoiding LACs on the basis of insufficient AA enrollment."</p>

<p>^^^ Well that depends on what the student is looking for in terms of black enrollment. Insisting on black enrollment above 8% would eliminate a lot of schools, but I found plenty of great schools that met my threshold of 4%. And I can't think of a single school with less than 3% enrollment, for which there isn't a peer school with black enrollment of at least 3%: Colby, for example wouldn't make the cut, but Bates, Skidmore, Vassar, Kenyon and Bowdoin would.</p>

<p>"We became fast friends, and discovered we were both members of the same religious denomination, had similar opinions on politics, and had a lot of similar career aspirations. Oh, yeah, I am white and he is black. I went to college hoping to make discoveries like that."</p>

<p>^^^ Yes, but you were attending a "ginormous state university" where even if the % of black students was low, the absolute number was fairly high. I'm also certain that your circle of friends included a healthy share of white students who also shared your interest/background. For black students at an LAC, finding same-race, same-interest frineds can be difficult - - especially on a campus where only 30 students are of your race on campus. (Not to mention the dating and hair-care issues that girls encounter.)</p>