Alabama 96th in Latest USNWR Rankings

Colleges and Universities A-Z University of Alabama
21

Back when I was a student here at Minnesota, there was a big push to raise admission standards. “Drive for Excellence”, I believe it was called, and received a huge backlash from students and legislators alike. It was seen as being elitist and totally out of touch with the land-grant principles on which our school was founded. It all but chased out the then-President, whose initiative it was.

Since then, the standards have been raised, quietly, and a lot of the lower stat students have been shunted into the state college system (while at the same time, more funding and support has been given to those schools). From a skeptic’s perspective, while I see our stats now more respectable, I haven’t seen much change in terms of national rankings.

22

@CylconesGrad, I’m not certain about the rules posting links to purchase third-party products on CC so I’ll send you a PM.

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@khidhala I think UMN is rated pretty high. Believe me when I say that five years ago there was hardly anyone here in IL that would have considered UMN. I know of at least 10 students from kids HS that are going to investigate and potentially apply.

I think UMN reputation is increasing. USN&WR is a laggard because 6 year graduation rate is a heavy factor.

24

@khidhala & @CyclonesGrad according to Public University Honors, although in 2014 US News had Minnesota nationally ranked at 71, if you simply utilized US News academic department ranking to re-do the rankings then Minnesota would rank around 23 in the country.

Again, that’s if you take out of consideration criteria such as selectivity, graduation ranks, average ACT/SAT score and so on…and focus on the rankings of the individual academic departments.

Many of the large public schools with excellent academic departments perform poorly on US News overall ranking assessment which can favor the small selective private institutions, but if you look further through the numbers and focus on the academic strengths of the departments you get a different picture. If your child is going to be admitted to a school’s honor program then the selectivity and graduation rates for the university as a whole (which are huge part of US News rankings) may not be as relevant to your child than the strength of the academic programs themselves.

25

As an old Alumni of UA I have seen the School has come a long way to be in top 100 and above Auburn. (Roll Tide)
But still lot need to be done as seen reading from these posters.

Retention rate is very important after getting high stats students. So lets see lower stats students first.

UA should draw a line how low they will go to pick these students who are sure not going to make 4 yrs,
I know UA also attracts lot of students just because UA has a better Football team or Baseball team and these are not
players but just Die hard Fans and graduation is second on the list. So some work is needed to filter out these types of students and send them to local colleges…

Now High stats students, why they leaving is tough to fix.

  • They may be getting home sick and not easy to come to a school in south from Midwest, Northwest and Northeast..
  • Some of these students may be not really high achieving students and when they meet their counterpart they start getting Bs and Cs which they are not used to and they transfer to other state schools.. I was told by one Very high stats student that getting a B is like getting an F. I will take a B any time because I was a C+ B- student all my student life.. but I used to work 40 hr per week and take 16-17 hr of course load every semester..that's a different topic..
  • Some of these students are actually very high stats and feel UA faculty is not offering them what they need and they transfer, I know one such student who transfer to a NE school after seeing the Caliber of teaching at UA and feel he is wasting his time here, so you will find these types too.

So bottom lines all these small things adds up and UA should start acting before they will go over 100…

26

I love this stuff…

Lets look at Freshman retention (and by association graduation rates):

I think several factors impact retention rate (and graduation rates).

The obvious point, is that UA has a significant % of OOS students, and they, due to being so far away from home, have a slightly greater chance to not return after their freshman year. Another is low stat (mostly in-state) students not being able to handle the academics.

I’m sure UA has already put in place strategies to integrate OOS students into campus and for making sure to only admit students able to handle the work load, identifying students, early, that need additional tutoring…etc. These may need to be expanded.

I think a problem that may be harder to resolve is cost. Unless you’re on a merit scholarship, UA can be expensive as compared to it’s peers (or other in-state options). Especially for low SES students.

UA
Average Net Price: $18,935
Avg Net Price by Income:
00,000-30,000: $17,957
30,001-48,000: $18,895

AU
Average Net Price: $18,500
Avg Net Price by Income:
00,000-30,000: $13,814
30,001-48,000: $16,053
The avg net Price for AU is about the same as UA, but it is much lower at AU for low SES students.

UGA
Average Net Price: $13,287
Avg Net Price by Income:
00,000-30,000: $ 8,558
30,001-48,000: $10,081

FSU
Average Net Price: $16,737
Avg Net Price by Income:
00,000-30,000: $12,737
30,001-48,000: $13,618

UF
Average Net Price: $14,786
Avg Net Price by Income:
00,000-30,000: $7,207
30,001-48,000: $7,587

AUB (another in-state option for Alabama students)
Average Net Price: $13,982
Avg Net Price by Income:
00,000-30,000: $12,453
30,001-48,000: $13,707

Average net price is generated by subtracting the average amount of federal, state/local government, or institutional grant or scholarship aid from the total cost of attendance. Total cost of attendance is the sum of published tuition and required fees (lower of in-district or in-state), books and supplies, and the weighted average for room and board and other expenses

I believe cost is driving low SES students to transfer to other (in-state) lower cost schools. Losing your OOS scholarship will also drive out OOS students. (as well as academics, etc…)

**UA’s transfer rate is 24%, while AU’s is 21%, FSU is 7%, UGA is 6% and UF is 4%. **

Percentage of Full-time, First-Time Students Who Transferred Out Within 150% of “Normal Time” to Completion for Their Program

Cost (as one driver) >>> Transfer Rates >>> Freshman retention and Graduation rates

Cost will be a hard nut to crack. Saving $5K+ a year by transferring to AUB can be tempting, especially if you’re a low SES student…

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Fatherof2boys already pointed out that 88.3% of all UA Honors College students graduate at UA within 6 yrs. Thus, it has a much lower transfer rate relative to the school overall.

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Definitions of the ranking criteria as on the USNWR

http://www.usnews.com/education/best-colleges/articles/ranking-criteria-and-weights

Criteria & their weights:

15.0% Peer assessment survey
7.5% HS counselors’ ratings
22.5% SUBTOTAL: Undergraduate reputation

1.3% Acceptance rate
3.1% HS class standing in top 10%
0.0% HS class standing in top 25%
8.1% CR+M of SAT; composite ACT
12.5% SUBTOTAL: Student selectivity

7.0% Faculty compensation
3.0% Percent faculty with terminal degree
1.0% Percent faculty that is full time
1.0% Student-faculty ratio
6.0% Class size, 1-19 students
2.0% Class size, 50+ students
20.0% SUBTOTAL: Faculty resources

18.0% Average graduation rate
4.5% Average 1st-yr student retention rate
7.5% Graduation rate performance
30.0% SUBTOTAL: Graduation and retention rates

10.0% Financial resources per student
5.0% Average alumni giving rate
15.0% SUBTOTAL: Financial resources

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@fatherof2boys Do you happen to know the Average Academic Ranking of UA? Where does it fall on the list?

@dadfor2014 “So some work is needed to filter out these types of students and send them to local colleges…” this is exactly what UMN does as @khidhala has stated. Being from IL, I know that UIUC does the same.

We were at the UMN Engineering invite and the associate dean clearly discussed how each Freshman student in engineering meets with their adviser every two weeks to track progress. He discussed how they want the high stats kids to succeed.

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I was always surprised at how few of my classmates at UA started at a community college or other state school Alabama has a regional/community college system which could easily be used to send students to 4 year institutions. UA has a very generous credit transfer policy such that students could easily transfer to UA from OOS schools as well.

UA has long admitted that it needs to improve student retention, especially among students from nearby states, first generation college students, and low income students. There are some programs in place to help this, but there is plenty of room for improvement.

I’ve known a number of high stats students who transferred out of UA or stayed longer than 4 years. Reasons for such included difficulty adjusting to being away from home, staying too connected to high school friends and not making new friends, difficulty managing the extra freedom compared to high school, and losing financial support. UA has programs in place to combat all of these issues, but at the same time it’s relatively difficult to indentify students most at risk of dropping out or transferring.

My advice for incoming students is to make UA your new home. Learn about the local area and make an effort to meet new people. Note that for many people, this is not an easy task. There will be times when you feel lonely or want to go home, but use those times to make your time at UA even better. 4 years goes by really quick and then you’ll be moving on to a new stage of your life better prepared for what lies ahead.

31

Sage advice as always @SEA_tide.

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@CyclonesGrad I think some of these issues are fixable, UA has all the stats in front of them that which students are are dropping out and what were their stats when they get accepted, either try to push those students to stay in the program and graduate or politely don’t accept them and they will go to 2 yr colleges or some state Universities.
They can even transfer after 2 yr and try to give a shot. I myself spend 5 Quarters in a community college before being accepted to GTech, UT at Knoxville and UA . I choose UA because they gave me most Transfer Credits even though GTech was my go to school…

I have many students from my neighborhood in IL decided to go to UA on Full Tuition + scholarships and they loving it so far and more applying this year also. We also have many students who goes to UIUC and some of them come back to local colleges in their sophomore year, either they cant make it or Financial reasons as I was told.

I would rather graduate with an Associate Degree from a 2 yr college then dropping out from a 4 yr University.
Student can always Transfer to a 4 yr School if he or she desire to continue with their studies and its better financially.

My D is a Junior in HS and already looking into out of states school and UA was in the List but she start liking FL schools more now ( UM, UF and FSU ). She is in top 5% of her class…

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I am just reviewing UA because I am not very familiar with the school and being an engineer makes me, unfortunately, too detail oriented at times. When I do not know something, I try to learn as much as possible.

Your points about going to a JC are very valid not only from a money aspect but also a maturity aspect… I had many friends at ISU that did that. UIUC is incredibly expensive for an IS student. The engineering program is highly competitive for sure.

What makes your daughter want to entertain FL schools? Hates the IL cold? :wink:

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Yeah, I’m wondering about this. @CyclonesGrad I’m in a similar position as you…have a junior D looking for merit, into STEM. Looking at UMN honors very closely, as well as UA. The retention at UA is what worries me. Lots of OOS kids at other schools deal with the same problems…yet it seems retention is higher. What’s so different about UA? Is it farther than most OOS kids go due to the financial advantages? Is it culture shock? Lack of administrative support. I wonder…

Curious, too, why your daughters are not considering ISU. Good engineering school…not too far…fairly inexpensive.

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@2muchquan The simple answer of why my DD2 and DS2 do not want to apply to ISU for engineering is because I went there. My nephew goes there, at my recommendation, and loves the school and is doing well.

The cost at ISU with merit $ and legacy would be about $19K/year for tuition/R&B. This is less than UMN even with IS rates. I think ISU is a very good engineering school, of course, I am probably biased.

Ultimately, I think for my DD2 and DS2 it will come down to UMN or UA. I doubt either will get into UMN CSE Honors. See the link below that shows UMN CSE Honors stats:

http://admissions.tc.umn.edu/honors/review.html

DD2 30 ACT, 4.0 UW; 5.5W. DS2 32 ACT, 4.0 UW; 5.6W

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Admission to Bama’s Honors College is not particularly stringent: 28 on the ACT or a single-sitting 1250 (M/CR) on the SAT and a 3.50 high school GPA (calculated however the high school sees fit). So, unless a student is receiving one of the full or near-full scholarships, I can easily see where distance, cost, poor performance, or some combination of the three could cause a student not to return.

I’m sure there are also students who decide, after giving it a year, that they’d rather pay to go to a more prestigious school, perhaps applying again to schools that previously wait-listed them. It’s perfectly understandable for a family that can afford it.

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@CyclonesGrad

Yes my Daughter like warm and Humid Climate even though she is born and raised in Chicago Cold weather.
She loves Florida weather and been to Miami and Orlando many times and just like that sticky humid Air.
I myself likes Warm weather too and will be moving their in Future when retired or once Daughter moves their.

My son is at UM so that’s another incentive for my daughter to go their and she loves the Campus vibe when she visited UM Campus few times in last 2 years. My son hate Humidity but loves everything else UM has to offer.
He loves Cold weather and used to go to HS in shorts in Chicago Frigid Cold, I used to told him its not crazy but suicidal…

But UA to me is better overall Financially, Academics and weather… But its just me thinking, in the end they are the ones who will decide where they will go…

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<<<
What’s odd is the direction of the trend from #86 to #88 and now #96. That’s kind of hard to explain given the investment in facilities and the recruitment of high stat students over the last few years. I guess its possible that while Bama has improved other institutions are also improving as well. However, the extent of the changes at Bama are unsurpassed by any of other public flagships that my son is considering so I’m a little confused here.


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I really think that the rubrics have been tweaked to get the results that THEY want. Do I suspect that a bunch of elite-minded journalists don’t want a “deep-south public” rising in their ranks? Yes, I do. They want Bama on the plantation and not stepping off.

<<<

  1. Incoming Freshman middle 50% and ACT spread (8% overall score)
  2. Top 10% of HS Graduation Class (3%)
  3. 6 year graduation rate (18%) <<<==== WHAT is this from? isn’t it around 66%

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1....Bama and other southern schools will always have trouble with this because they have a high AA population. Keeping that as an 8% score, rather than using the upper quartile, will always seriously hurt Bama. It's almost a racist metric. AA students nationwide, have much lower scores. The average ACT for black students is 17. So, if Bama and other southerns are accepting a number of "average" black students, then they're accepting many with ACT 17-20...and that's going to hurt reporting numbers. Not much Bama can do about this.

2 ... Many of Bama's students come from private high schools...especially from Texas, but also Alabama. A great student can easily be relegated to a 11% ranking or worse simply because their classmates are very strong. Because UTexas has that strict top 7% rule, Bama scoops up the great private school students who don't qualify for UT. Not much Bama can do about this.

3 That 18% grad rate within 6 years is a problem (that seems very low...is that including those who drop out or transfer out?) Some of it is simply that UA sits in a good-sized city where locals also slowly get their educations there...working, going to school, etc. I also think that too many people confuse "12 credits is full-time" with graduating on time....and then kids run out of aid, parents money, etc. I also think that there is a BIG problem with the parent loan situation. Parents (not just here) borrow to pay, and then either realize that they're borrowing too much or they're next year's loan is simply denied.

I think Bama will need to soon require students to “qualify” for admission into certain majors. Having ACT 23 kids (or whatever) starting in Eng’g, wasting a semester or two of tuition/housing, and then changing majors is going to cause trouble.

<<any idea=“” why=“” any=“” of=“” these=“” [few]=“” honors=“” kids=“” leave?=“”>>>

I personally know of 3 of these students. All 3 had depression ADHD issues that flared once away from “home base.”

For most/all of these kids, their families had always been “in the background” helping keep all the plates in the air, but never seeking any medical help. One family has now sought medical treatment, and Bama has agreed to “back up” his scholarship so that he can “start over” once he’s well-enough to return.

Bama is starting to recognize that many smart kids need this extra help with scholarship management.

One student refused to recognize his issues, harshly blamed Bama even though he literally holed himself up in his dorm room, spring transferred to another school that he wanted, and AGAIN he had issues, and had to transfer to a school that he could commute from home. I don’t know if he ever received treatment. Obviously, Bama wasn’t the issue.


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I compared UA and UMN because I think they are both considered more regional and do not draw significantly from throughout the US.

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I don’t know how true that is. UA has 1000 students from Calif alone. There are at least 1000 from Illinois. I don’t know what all of UMinn’s numbers are.

UMinn only has 4% Black students! …and only 27% OOS! (probably most from Wisconsin because of the tuition break)

Didn’t UMinn’s ranking drop to #71 this year? I don’t think it’s #69 anymore.


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UA has done a good job of getting high stats freshman in over the last 5 years but they have not brought up the bottom end.

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Well, Bama could raise its bar for admittance like OTHER schools have to keep more URMs out…would that be a good thing? I don’t think so.


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Just like on a sports team, the quality of your team is how good is the bottom end of the roster. A few stars does not make the overall team great. <<<<

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I don’t agree with that…not even for sports.


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believe UA has more financial resources than UMN. <<<

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?? Bama may have more scholarship dollars from its Crimson Tide program, but UMinn has a $3+ Billion dollar endowment! Bama doesn’t even have a $1B endowment…it has less than $700M…that is a significant difference. UMinn has the financial resources.

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What Fatherof2boys said in an earlier post bears repeating: “Bama like many public universities that have honors colleges is a tale of two colleges. For example, my 2014 copy of A Review of Fifty Public University Honors Programs states that Bama’s six-year graduation rate is 67% for the university as a whole; however, the six-year graduation rate for students in UA’s Honors College is 88.3%.” Retention does not seem to be a major issue for the students in the UA Honors Program.

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"3) 6 year graduation rate (18%) <<<==== WHAT is this from? isn’t it around 66%


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" The 18% is not UA's 6 year graduation rate, but the percentage of this item in the overall rubric for USNWR. In other words, 18% of the overall score is determined by the 6 year grad rate relative to the quality of the class.

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