96th? 96th???
Ok - who thinks Bama got the shaft?
Oh well, at least we came in ahead of Auburn (102) and Tennessee (103).
But 96th? Really?
Grrrrrrr!
What the heck? this is crazy. Bama has repeatedly increased its middle quartiles. It’s almost as if the “measures” have been changed to force these results.
I wouldn’t get to worked up about the ratings. Keep in mind that it’s a lagging indicator, and many of the investments (in facility, students and facilities will not show up in the “ratings” for several years. Also keep in mind that a large portion of the ratings (22.5%) is based on survey date and it takes time to change folks opinions about colleges.
UA is tied with FSU at 96.
FSU’s Middle 50% range:
SAT Critical Reading 570-640
SAT Math 560-640
SAT Writing 560-640
ACT Composite 26-29
UA’s Middle 50% range:
SAT Critical Reading 490-620
SAT Math 500-630
SAT Writing 480-600
ACT Composite 22-31
From 2014:
What’s odd is the direction of the trend from #86 to #88 and now #96. That’s kind of hard to explain given the investment in facilities and the recruitment of high stat students over the last few years. I guess its possible that while Bama has improved other institutions are also improving as well. However, the extent of the changes at Bama are unsurpassed by any of other public flagships that my son is considering so I’m a little confused here.
I will state, that if you purchase the actual print edition of the US News rankings it includes the data for each school referenced in @Gator88NE post above. I had the print edition from last year and compared to the other top public SEC schools (UF, UGA & A&M) Bama’s retention and graduation rates were lower. On the other hand, as noted in the post above the data utilized to measure the graduation rate is kind of stale, so it may not be that accurate a snapshot of where Bama is right now. The general trend to a lower ranking however still doesn’t make sense to me.
Oh well - Let Bama be our little hidden gem.
More pizza for us!
Albeit based on a very small sample size, his first year my son lived with 3 other honors students - 1 of them dropped out and moved home. His second year he lived with three different honors students - two of them dropped out. His third year my son lived with one of the roommates from his second year and two new roommates - one of them dropped out and moved home. Bama has done an amazing job of attracting top students, but if rankings are important to them and retention is such an important factor, it seems that they need to focus on keeping these top students they attract.
Academic rep is a large part of it too; it takes time to earn the awards and ratchet up to the type of research budget necessary to move that particular needle.
Any idea why any of these Honors kids leave? If you look at the IVY schools the retention rates are near 100%. If many honors kids with high stats but are leaving, this is definitely concerning to me, as I has assumed that the lower retention rate was due to non-honors kids leaving.
Are some of them transferring to other schools, or are they flat out not cutting it and flunking out?
I can only speak of the students I know and of the students that my son knows only one of them transferred to another school. The remaining students are not currently enrolled at any school, even though they were all high achieving high school students on scholarship when they started at Bama.
The students he knew left for a variety of issues, including homesickness and not feeling like there was a good fit, academic struggles, and drug use/abuse.
My son has also experienced struggles, but him not completing his degree is not really an option I am even willing to consider, so when he encounters struggles I help him find resources to cope - such as REQUIRING him to go to the engenuity lab last year for assistance (I told him any financial assistance from me was dependent upon it) and suggesting he co-op to get a break from classes when he was feeling very burned out.
The resources are available to help students struggling with most issues they’ll experience, but many of these young students either don’t know how to find them or are hesitant of using them for whatever reason (it was VERY difficult to get my honor’s engineering student to get tutoring at the engenuity lab, he definitely was not one to admit he needed help). I may ‘hover’ more than some people believe is appropriate for a young adult, but I try to stay aware of when my son is experiencing issues and make sure I am able to help him find the resources he needs.
Pure speculation here, but maybe those Honor kids choose Bama purely based on chasing scholarship money without really doing a detailed determination as to whether it was the right fit? in any event, I’d be surprised if the retention/graduation rate is being hit the hardest by the high stats students.
Bama’s middle and high quartiles compare favorably to many of its peers; however, the lowest quartile based on numbers alone does not fare as well. For example, if you look at the numbers in @Gator88NE post above, the top end of Bama’s mid-50 range test scores compare very well with FSU; however, Bama has a 9 point spread on their ACT scores (22-31) whereas FSU has a much tighter 3 point spread (26-29). The spread for the SAT scores is also very wide compared to its peers. The differential between the test scores of the top 25% and the bottom 75% at Bama is typically larger than most other flagship public schools. Its possible that students in the bottom cohort are the ones that are having the biggest impact on the retention and graduation numbers. Again, this is just pure speculation on my part.
I agree that the retention rate is most likely lower for the lower stats kids who are not as prepared. But based upon the issues my son has seen his high stats friends/roommates experience, I can only speculate that the lower stats kids are going through the same struggles on a much bigger scale. As I said, I know that the resources are available to help these students through tutoring services, through the counseling center, and through many other campus resources. But when I witness high stats students that either aren’t aware of the available resources or hesitate to use them, then I have to suspect the same is true of the lower stats students. I don’t know the solution, but purely based on numbers, it seems that other schools may have developed a better way to address the issue.
I’m not sure that UA’s retention rate of 87% is so much lower than that at many other schools. But its six year grad rate IS much lower. Judy Bonner highlighted this problem repeatedly, and said in a recent interview that its the one area she wish she could have improved. I know there are programs in place to raise that rate, but it will take time to see the results, given that its a six year retrospective look. The rise in the quality of the freshman classes each year should pay off in higher six year graduation rates in the near future.
I think the main reason why UA has slipped a bit, is the continuing lower peer reputation score. Can we really expect peers to change their view of UA so soon? It wasn’t too long ago, that UA was making party school lists and was not enrolling so many top students. UA’s Engineering College has improved in quality and size so fast, that it probably will take more time for the word to get out. How many know that UA now has a larger and better qualified freshman Engineering class than Auburn? That it now has more undergrads studying engineering than Auburn? The common perception is still that Auburn is the school with the great engineering school, and UA, the school with the great law and business schools.
Another indicator is the high school counselor rep score. I noticed that the average rating from high school counselors for UA was a score of 3.7, while that at Auburn was 3.9. See http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/university-of-alabama-1051/rankings.
High school counselors are likely asked to rate the schools closest to them. So, given UA’s broader national outreach, there might be less regional or in state appreciation for UA’s rise. Alabama high school counselors seem to still point to Auburn as the school with the best academics. If that is so, UA needs to do a better job of improving its rep with these counselors. Maybe more of these counselors are Auburn grads? Auburn folks really do think their school is the Harvard of the South.
From past years, UA does well at class size under 20, alumni giving rate, selectivity (greatly improved over last decade), so if it can raise the six year graduation rate, and raise its rep among high school counselors and peer evaluators, then it will rise in the rankings. People shouldn’t base their decisions on these rankings, but I am sure they have some effect, so hopefully, Dr. Bell and others are taking steps to improve these lagging indicators.
I just looked at the freshman retention rates for other state schools in the South.
UA = 87%
Auburn = 90%
Florida State = 92%
UGA = 94%
UFlorida = 96%
I think two factors explain UA’s lower rate. Its higher proportion of lower stats students and its much higher percentage of out of state students than any of these other Southern schools. As for the score related to the six year grad rate, US News actually compares the six year rate with the quality of the freshman class that was supposed to have graduated in six years. Other schools SHOULD have a higher six year rate, because their freshman classes don’t have the same proportion of lower stats students.
Does anyone have a way to get the retention rate for UA Honor’s students alone? So far, I see no hard evidence that UA Honors students leave the school in large numbers.
I agree with a lot of what you’ve stated above @Atlanta68.
Here are the numbers straight from US News 2016 Rankings:
Alabama
Freshmen Retention Rate: 87%
4-Year Graduation Rate: 39%
6-Year Graduation Rate: 66%
Florida
Freshmen Retention Rate: 96%
4-Year Graduation Rate: 67%
6-Year Graduation Rate: 88%
Georgia
Freshmen Retention Rate: 94%
4-Year Graduation Rate: 61%
6-Year Graduation Rate: 85%
Texas A&M
Freshmen Retention Rate: 91%
4-Year Graduation Rate: 50%
6-Year Graduation Rate: 79%
Looking at the criteria above, I think there are three areas (comprising almost 30% of overall score) that are hurting UA in the rankings:
- Incoming Freshman middle 50% and ACT spread (8% overall score)
- Top 10% of HS Graduation Class (3%)
- 6 year graduation rate (18%)
I compared UA and UMN because I think they are both considered more regional and do not draw significantly from throughout the US. Also, I am very familiar with UMN because DD1 graduated from there.
Here is how they compare (info from Common Data Set 2014-15):
UMN UA
ACT Spread (17/25/50/75/87) 25/26/28/30/31 20/22/26.5/31/33
Top 10% of HS Graduation Class 47.3% 41.4%
6 year graduation rate (2008 Cohort) 78% 65.7%
The range of ACT scores of enrolled freshman is very large (standard deviation = 6.67) and 6 year graduation rate is low. The way for UA to move up the rankings is to get more Freshman with higher ACT scores, not meaning 30 and above but more applicants in the top 25% of test takers, about 24 ACT and above. The spread needs to be narrowed because the average (50th %) is not hugely different from UMN.
Getting students with higher ACT scores and more in the top 10% will most likely result in better 6 year graduation rates. Better students = Better retention/graduation.
Here are the trends for UA (Common Data Set):
6 year Grad Middle 50% ACT
2010 (2004 Cohort) 67.2 22/29
2011 65.8
2012 66.5 22/30
2013 66.5
2014 65.7 22/31
UA has done a good job of getting high stats freshman in over the last 5 years but they have not brought up the bottom end. Just like on a sports team, the quality of your team is how good is the bottom end of the roster. A few stars does not make the overall team great.
I believe the ranking difference below is a result of the above. In fact, I believe UA has more financial resources than UMN.
Rankings Overall Public
UMN 69 25
UA 96 43
@CyclonesGrad, Bama like many public universities that have honors colleges is a tale of two colleges. For example, my 2014 copy of A Review of Fifty Public University Honors Programs states that Bama’s six-year graduation rate is 67% for the university as a whole; however, the six-year graduation rate for students in UA’s Honors College is 88.3%.
The underlying premise of the book (which I wholeheartedly subscribe to) is that US News rankings have limited utility for students who are qualified for the respective public university honors programs because those kids typically will have smaller class sizes and access to other resources or experiences that are found in the private selective colleges and which are not available to the student body as a whole. The numbers above respecting the differential in UA’s graduation rate is proof of that.
I do agree with you that its at the lower end of the cohort is where Bama is falling behind its peers. The merit aid is taking care of the top end which compares very favorably with most of the flagship schools.
CycloneGrad: " I compared UA and UMN because I think they are both considered more regional and do not draw significantly from throughout the US. Also, I am very familiar with UMN because DD1 graduated from there."
I don’t think that is true. More than 60% of UA’s freshman class last Fall was from out of state. And UA now has a lot of students from all over the nation.
Also, UA is in a catch 22. There have been a lot of complaints within state about the high percentage of out of state students entering UA. UA has also been under relentless scrutiny for its supposed lack of “diversity,” despite its relatively high number of African American students. Raising the admissions standards is something I support, but I hope you appreciate the backlash that will ensue should UA significantly raise its standards.
I am very supportive of Bama not snubbing it’s own lower stats “in state kids” to play games in the ratings race like so many state supported public universities do …by either completing rejecting them or by accepting them into a “bridge” program at a local community/tech college so they don’t have to count them in the stats…Roll Tide!
@fatherof2boys I agree about the Honors college. That is why if my twins go to UA, I will want them to get into the Honors College. There should be no issue considering they both have 30+ Act and 4.0 GPA.
UA does do well on the top end with many schools but needs to raise the low end of the cohort.
Here is the stats for some Big 10 schools:
Middle 50% ACT 6 year graduation
UIUC 26/32 84%
Michigan 29/33 91%
Purdue 24/30 73%
Wisconsin 26/31 84%
Ohio State 27/31 83%
Minnesota 26/30 78%
UA 22/31 66%
ACT 16.5/24 Top 10% = 28+ Top 15% = 26+ ACT 24;22 = Top 24%; Top 38%
It is obvious that if UA wants to climb in the rankings, they are going to need to figure out a way to get higher stats for the lower end of the cohort.
Where can you purchase the “Review of Fifty Public University Honors Programs”? Who publishes it?