I think you are misinterpreting a bit here @hebegebe
I thought @lookingforward was just stating that many people only assume URMs got in because of their race and may ignore that some URMs actually have the stats. I don’t think they’re arguing that everyone against AA is prejudiced
Without turning political, even the Clintons’ most vocal opponents didn’t argue that Bill didn’t have the intellectual chops to “deserve” Georgetown or Hillary the same for Wellesley. Boy, did that change for Obama and Columbia. That’s exactly what some of you are doing when you’re “surprised” when there’s a “deserving” URM.
Except that getting stopped by the police doesn’t directly impact educational success or failure. One could safely presume a self-esteem impact, but lots of kids take a self-esteem hit for a variety of reasons–a big nose, extra pounds, bad acne, nasty parents, a learning disability, poverty, disreputable family members, etc. It’s hard to quantity.
@JHS is absolutely correct. Adcoms value lower SES kids of all races. And the myth of the “rich black kid who gets unfair advantages” has just gotten really, really old. Adcoms can tell the difference. CC loves its conspiracy theories, but the truth is that every adcom I have ever met cared deeply about the kids and about building a diverse and supportive community; they’re not just ticking boxes and filling quotas.
I think its interesting that you never see posts saying “oh he just got in because he’s poor” or “because he’s from a rural area with crappy schools” – but every year, you hear people saying “he just got in because he’s black.” And those folks always make a whole lot of assumptions about the contents of the kid’s application (particularly as it might compare to their own/their kid’s). People seem to be able to acknowledge the obstacles created by poverty, bad schools, or even parents who may not value education, but they don’t acknowledge the impact of ingrained and institutional racism. All of these disadvantages have been exhaustively researched, consistently proven, and are relevant.
Where did anyone say this student “just got in because he’s black”?? He is obviously extremely qualified. What people are saying, however, is he may have run the table because of the extra advantage of being a URM.
Racism is pervasive in society. Affirmative Action acts to address those issues. If you glance at my posts in this thread I hit on that. The issue is that certain people, even on these forums, attempt to argue that affirmative action is the reason that we were admitted.
I had a classmate tell me I would take his spot at Georgia Tech because I was black. I never even applied to Georgia Tech. (lol)
People can have it both ways. Yes, issues in society make life harder for minorities. No, it is not hard to believe that a black 17 year old applying to Harvard can be just as smart as a white 17 year old applying to Harvard.
I wasn’t speaking of affirmative action, but the attitudes I see here about URMs. Eg, this very notion that it’s all about, “No one understands what URM’s go through and how tough life is for them.”
Forget that and look at the individual accomplishments.
And, ime, there is interest in low SES kids who accomplish. I’m not sure why CC thinks there isn’t, at top schools.
From my perspective, the fastest rising (improving) stats are among Hispanic kids, any SES. But I’m not stats focused. CC is stats obsessed. There is more to what makes a kid great and highly “able.”
Please re-ead what PG just wrote.
This is not all about “getting stopped by the police.” That’s a real social issue but separate.
See how you assume some extra advantage?
Bill Clinton was a Rhodes Scholar. You would be hard pressed to find another President with his intellect. But are you saying that liberals never mocked George W. Bush’s intelligence and his admission to Yale?
I wasn’t talking specifically about @TheAtlantic (although I’m certain he’s had that experience many times despite his obvious qualifications). I was addressing comments early in this thread that seemed to complain that all or most of the 8-Ivy-acceptance kids were URMs (apparently white immigrants don’t count) and that this indicated some “unfairness.” The “just because he/she was black” was not always explicit, but the implication was definitely there.
Also, in the last several weeks, I’ve seen way too many disappointed kids and parents either complaining about URMs who got in places that rejected them or baldly claiming that they would have been accepted had they been black.
@TheAtlantic, the point of my post was that people of all backgrounds can experience bias and discrimination on a personal level, and it is unfair to claim that white people don’t understand “ingrained racism”. I can relate to personal bias, growing up in the former Soviet Union as a Jew. I had my fair share of “kike” jokes, and my best friend told me I must be rich because I am a Jew, because her mom told her so. I asked her why are we rich if my family of 4 lives in a 1-bedroom apartment and her family of 3 lives in a 2-bedroom apartment and she had no answer to this. We stayed best friends up until my parents left for America, btw. I did not get to experience anti-Semitism on an institutional level like my dad, who was denied admission to a college of his choice because a quota for Jews has been filled (his best friend, a non-Jew with lower exam scores got in just fine). And yes, my mom was told by my grandma that as a Jew my mom hard to work twice as hard in order to achieve the same thing as non-Jews in USSR. And this work ethic has helped my parents start with nothing after immigrating and reach middle-class status when so many of white Americans, with so many more opportunities since birth, couldn’t. What I am saying is there are two ways to look at non-institutionalized prejudice and bias - it either makes you a victim or it makes you stronger, tougher, more resilient. I guess I am just tired of seeing many URM’s claiming the victim status (and I am certainly not referring to you).
Btw, my husband went to a top technical university in Russia (an equivalent of CalTech, Harvey-Mudd, etc), where all entrance exams were completely color-blind - no name, gender, nationality, etc. Each applicant was assigned a number and tests/essays were graded on merit only. Yes, as a result the university was disproportionally male and disproportionally Jewish, but everyone felt the process was fair.
The biggest problem with today’s admission to top universities (including the 8 Ivies) is that people don’t think it is fair - because of URM, gender, class, etc. I’ve read on multiple threads that many would feel better about a pure lottery among qualified students. But that won’t let these top colleges build the community they want. And they have every right to pick and choose based on their own formula/understanding. To parents who complain about their kids not being admitted while someone else’s got “purely because” (in their opinion) of gender, URM, or some other hook, I’d say - do you really want your kid to go to school where s/he is not appreciated for who s/he is? If an Ivy doesn’t feel s/he is a good fit for them, why do you still feel they are a good fit for him/her?
@typiCAmom
I have no intent of changing your opinion on the subject. I think it’s a given that all groups can face discrimination on a personal level, which I actually mentioned in my previous post. What I do think is shortsighted, is to pretend that minorities aren’t treated differently in America that white people. I do think that institutional racism is an issue that is still prevalent in society, and do believe that localized racism is generally aimed against minority groups. To me, the issue seems to be that certain people are totally ok ignoring that, and if they don’t actually experience it are quick to deny that it exists. I think that divisions based on class, gender, race, sexuality, etc. all exist as relevant barriers to progress and personal achievement. Therefore, I don’t think that class needs to be the only distinction, because there’s no false dichotomy at play here. Colleges can account for a variety of obstacles, not just one.
Well I’m happy to hear you don’t think I’m a victim lol. I’d agree that obstacles are a standard part of life, and that everyone has the capacity to overcome them. My issue is just that people that don’t have those obstacles often are quick to ignore that they exist. Nobody wants to be viewed as weak or as having had an easier life. Everybody wants to think that they made it because of their own work ethic. Even people that were given “small loans of 1 million dollars” feel as though everything they have, they earned. And that’s the issue I guess. We’re quick to point out the handouts that others receive, but we aren’t quick to highlight our own privileges.
@TheAtlantic, I disagree with you about institutional racism, but this is entirely off topic.
On the issue of privilege, I am just trying to understand where to draw the line. Yesterday, my daughter brought home from school a checklist listing privileges such as “white”, “educated”, “CI”, etc. The only few things that didn’t apply to her were “male”, “employed”, “wealthy”, “Christian” and “well-connected”. My daughter’s initial gripe was with “Tall” being a privilege - she has always struggled with being significantly taller than her peers and even being bullied in elementary school. In other words, to her it has never been a privilege, but somebody out there decided that it is. So to outside world, her struggles of being tall do not compare to struggles of someone being short, so she is inherently penalized for something she cannot control.
Next, we talked about “privilege” of being a man. My daughter’s take was - in today’s world, women are more privileged. Girls have easier time getting into STEM fields than boys, women are almost always believed when they accuse men of sexual harassment or rape, women can claim discrimination even when there is none. She said she wouldn’t want to be a boy in today’s world even if she was born one. I had to laugh outloud when she said “that’s why we have more transgender guys becoming women, because girls have all the power now”. Out of a mouth of a babe?
We also talked about privileges not listed in the checklist - i.e. being healthy, being born in USA vs. third world country, and the whole “all animals are created equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” It’s interesting to get a middle-schooler’s perspective…
You may be trying to be too literal. And things like male height have been studied.
People like to think of themselves as fair and open minded. And then you see their actions, words. That’s been studied, too.
Aren’t all of these things we can’t control?
@OHMomof2, well, she can control her religion, she can control her gender identity and in today’s world she can become a male. Through hard work and talent she can become educated, employed, wealthy and well-connected. At least all these things are now possible if she wanted them. But yes, she can’t control her height or her race - see how well it worked out for a girl who was born Caucasian but chose to self-identify herself as black.
Good points. I am thinking of it differently - parents well-connected, parents’ religion, etc.
Race, height, ethnicity, etc. are certainly immutable.
@OHMomof2, thank you. I think most people out there see privilege as something given to you at birth for no achievements of your own, and that sinks us back into Feudalism.
Btw, my personal gripe with the list was “employed” - especially after my son was born, I seriously wished I could just drop everything and stay home with him and enjoy raising him - to me, THAT was a privilege that my family couldn’t afford if we wanted to send our kids to one of the 8 Ivies - see how I drag myself back to topic 
Can someone tell me what “CI” is?
@Waiting2exhale, yes, I had to look it up, too. According to wiki, Cisgender is a term for someone who has a gender identity that aligns with what they were assigned at birth. The term was created for referring to “non-transgender” people without alienating transgender people. I assume I is the identity, not cure what C stands for.
Thanks for that. Will check in with my own middle-schooler now that I have a direction to go in.