Am I in good shape for graduate school?

Graduate School
1

Hello,
I am first-generation, rising junior at a mid-tier private university in the United States interested in applying to top grad programs in economics. I graduate in the spring of 2022, so I intend to apply to graduate school the fall prior. My top 3 schools are Columbia, MIT, and Princeton but I plan to apply to some other schools of similar level competitiveness as well. I do have a bit of issue though as I recently switched majors from chemistry to a dual major in economics and sociology is past fall and my intended research experience was cancelled this summer. I’m in the process of finding others now but I currently have no experience in any economic research but have prior research experience through the MSRP program in chemistry last summer and as a student researcher at my current institution for 1 year. In terms of stats and involvement, I have a 4.0 major, 3.76 cumulative GPA and extensive campus involvement as an RA, Student government representative, president of the Black Student Union, and other e-board roles in campus clubs/organizations. I also plan to take the GRE in a few weeks and from practice exams, expect somewhere around 320-330.

I am really just curious how you, the reader, think I shape up in the graduate admissions process right now and if you have any suggestions on finding opportunities in these unfortunate times.

Thanks for your help.

2

I don’t have any experience in the Econ field, but I do have a PhD in a social science, and a fair amount of experience with social and physical science PhDs. You are obviously a strong student, so here are some thoughts / queries that might be useful:

  1. will you have enough time to take enough high-level math, beyond the minimum required for your major?

  2. can you get research experience in the Econ dept of your university? Can they help you line up something for next summer? Those LORs are a huge variable.

  3. It seems…unlikely…that at this stage you know enough about the different PhD programs to know which ones will be the best for you and your research interests. Spend the next year figuring out what your real research interests are- you will spend 5-7 years becoming an expert in it and it is a lot happier experience if it is genuinely interesting to you! It is also key to writing a convincing Statement of Purpose.

  4. Be prepared to broaden your reach. Princeton has something like a 2% acceptance rate.

3

I did have a few additional things to add to this based off your response. Aside from my dual major, I am also double minoring in political science and statistics so I will have several higher level math and statistics courses prior to applying, beyond just my major requirements. And I am in the works of doing an independent research project (for college credit) with an economic faculty member in my department as well. In terms of research areas, I want to study public economics and focus on economic sociology, stratification, and inequalities. If all goes well this fall, *crossing my fingers, I plan to apply to some graduate school preview days at some of the grad schools I plan to apply to as well.

4

Those are great additions!

A suggestion for over the next year: figure out the people who are doing the kind of research that is interesting to you. Follow those researchers back to the universities where they trained, and the institutions where they are working now. Research those.

The single most important variable in your PhD is your supervisor, followed closely by the department. When you evaluate prospective programs evaluate potential supervisors - look for alignment with your own research objectives (ideally they will overlap but not be identical), where their grads go, how long it takes for them to complete their degree, etc.

It may be that Columbia, MIT, or Princeton is the best place for you- but you may also find that the right supervisor someplace unexpected. There was a parent here on CC whose daughter did her undergrad at Cambridge (UK), and he was astonished when she accepted a place at a university with a much less fancy name. But her supervisor is a world leader in her particular field, and the work that she is doing is both exciting to her, and setting her up for an amazing career. Keep your options wide open as you explore!

5

Unlike undergrad, the ONLY EC that matters for a top PhD program is research, research & more research. Keep working with the Econ faculty members and try to get your name on a pub.

btw: for Econ & Sociology, Chicago should be high on your list.

6

Why do you want to do a PhD?

Here is the thing - a PhD is not a senior thesis. Being interested enough to spend a year engaging in research part time will not get you through a PhD.

A PhD is a major research project, likely the biggest project you will do in your life. It has to be original and be of importance in the field. If you are doing your PhD in a highly competitive university in the field, like MIT, the expectations are much much higher. You are expected to further the knowledge in your field.

This is not providing answers that please your professors. This is asking questions which impress your professors and their colleagues, and figuring out how to answer them on your own. You will spending 80-100 hours a week engaging in research on a sub-sub topic in your field. You will be spending most of this time on your own.

Do you feel that this is what you want to do for the next 5-7 years?

As you wrote, you are attending a mid-tier university. The people who will be deciding whether to accept you are a committee of faculty and graduate students. Most have attended top tier universities for their undergraduates, and the faculty have mostly attended top tier schools for their PhDs.

Academia is severely prestige-ridden, and the fact that you are from a mid-tier university will negatively affect their impression of you. So you need to have better accomplishments and have a better demonstration of your understanding of the field. You also have to do a better job at demonstrating that you are as well trained as any applicants from Harvard or MIT.

You will likely need publications and letters of recommendation from well known figures in your field.

Being a minority may help, but it also may not. There are no Black PhD students at either MIT or Princeton, and Columbia has two Black PhD students (out of 130), and one of them is from Africa. Read into that what you may, but it also may be something to consider.

7

Overall, I agree with your larger points, @MWolf. A PhD is all about research, and is a long term commitment. But…

80-100 hours/wk for 5-7 years? Not in my experience…

During the 1st 2 years (when there is a lot of coursework), 40-50 hours of actual disciplined work, and 50-60+ hours in the run up to prelims is common enough. Once you move over to all research,(with the exception of brief pushes to get something out the door for a deadline), a well disciplined full-time work week is more typical…

…but! since people who are doing a PhD typically love their subject, the time spent can grow, because just as you are about to finish for the day you find an interesting study that might be relevant, so you just take a few minutes to look at it more carefully and…time slips away. Or, you are working on an analysis and something unexpected pops up and you want to see if this is an actual find or an anomaly so you try changing the variables and…time slips away.

In other words: if you really are interested in the research you are doing, the actual doing of a PhD can be (whisper it) more fun than not The luxury of being able to take a deep dive into a question and see where it leads? to poke and experiment and theorize and test? Yes, it’s long, and some of it is a slog, and there is definitely a mid-point slump that takes will to get through and the viva is always going to be anxious- but a lot of it is genuinely interesting, engaging, even invigorating. Add a supportive supervisor and your cohort of fellow students, and you have a community with whom to share the process, both intellectually and practically.

Re prestige- undergrad institution matters more in some fields than others (philosophy v physics, for example). But, even where it matters a lot, other things matter as well- the quality of the research the applicant has done, the calibre of the writers of the LoRs and their evaluation of the potential of the candidate. And, for a PhD the ‘fit’ of the research interests and research background is particularly relevant.

Re: demographics- it is true that Econ has a terrible track record in terms of diversity. Only about 5% of UG & Masters degrees in Econ go to Blacks/African Americans in the US, and about 3% of PhD’s. But the OP is coming from Chemistry, so this is not unfamiliar territory (6% and 4% respectively). And she gets the double whammy of being female, who are out-demo’d 2:1 in Econ. As the mother of a grad student who will be out-demo’d in her field for her entire career (the ratio is currently 88:12), I have seen some of the ways that plays out. It is also why I emphasized getting to know the departments well- my gradschoolkid ruled out several top names in her field b/c of the experience of the current (female) grad students. It’s not just % that matters, it’s attitude.

8

@collegemom3717 You are right that it’s field dependent, and, and I am a field ecologist. In my field, as in most field sciences, the time spent is higher than most, since you are travelling, spend a lot of time is setting things up, data collection, etc. Field scientists spend 10-12 hour days for weeks at a time while collecting data. Lab scientists can spend even more time a week when they are running their experiments.

Of course, you are also correct that PhD students love their subject, which is my point. Unless the idea of spending most of your waking time in the coming 4-7 years engaging in research in your chosen field sounds attractive, one isn’t really ready for a PhD. Unless, as you write, running your research isn’t fun, there isn’t a reason to do a PhD. Unless one has an itch do do research, and is driven to finish their projects even after it is no longer fun, there is no reason to do a PhD.

So basically, if somebody thinks that spending (OK) 60 hours a week engaged in research in one’s subject seems excessive, they really should consider other career choices.

I should also have qualified my statement about “prestige”. That is much more important for academic jobs than for outside of academia. A person with an economics PhD from any well regarded university, meaning almost any research university out there, will be able to get a very good job outside of academia.

However, Econ departments in universities like those that the OP mentions are usually caught up in prestige when recruiting graduate students. So, they generally avoid recruiting graduate students from any universities but the ones which they consider to be their academic peers or close. A look through the undergraduate institutes of the MIT PhD students in Econ shows that they have BAs from Harvard, Princeton, UChicago, etc, as well as their foreign equivalents.

@pme3333 You should check out Columbia University’s Bridge to PhD program:

https://bridgetophd.facultydiversity.columbia.edu/

9

First and foremost, thank you all @collegemom3717 @bluebayou @MWolf for your invaluable insight! I have read your responses numerous times and did some personal self-reflection and I honestly agree with most if not, all that you have said. I understand, in some respects now from what you each have said, the amount of effort and time it will take to accomplish a feat like obtaining a PhD, especially from some of the best and most renowned universities in the US. I realize for numerous reasons I am at a disadvantage but I assure you, I know a PhD is definitely the right end goal for me. I love research and it’s something I could see myself doing and committing to for 4 or 5 or honestly however long it will take me to achieve it.

With that said though, it is definitely possible doing my PhD following my undergrad may not be the best decision for me. Interestingly enough, I actually started looking at pre-doctoral programs last night (one of which was columbia) and found some great programs, with great professors that I could see me learning more skills that would only benefit me more prior to going to graduate school. With two years left of my undergrad, I will continue to conduct research at my home institute and apply to grad preview programs to see which departments and under which faculty I could see myself being the most successful. Ultimately, I will likely apply to both pre-doctoral and grad programs my senior year and when the time comes, make the decision I feel best suits me and my future.

Thank you all again for your time and willingness to share your wealth of knowledge in the graduate school realm. Stay safe and health!

10

@pme3333 With that maturity and attitude, you’ll go far in life.

Good luck!

PS. Of the universities on your list, Columbia is indeed the one which does best at looking beyond issues of undergraduate college prestige. You may also check out UPenn - they seem to also have a diversity of backgrounds among their PhD students. Finally - remember that a PhD in economics from schools like Wisconsin or Minnesota (or UCSD) will provide >95% of the opportunities that a PhD from MIT will, and these universities have students with a much higher diversity of backgrounds (and a wider variety of undergraduate colleges among their graduate students) than do MIT or Harvard.

11

Good luck, @pme3333- and come back as you go along your path. There is a lot of support here for you!

@MWolf I lol’d at your post. My cousin was doing a PhD when I was doing mine- but hers required field work, and mine was office based. Our grandmother kept asking her why she seemed to be working so much harder than I was!