American student looking to do undergraduate in Europe (Germany). Also studienkolleg?

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1

I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with applying to German universities? I am also considering a couple of other countries too such as the Netherlands, Switzerland, and Estonia (I am part Estonian). I have heard of people doing their masters in Germany, but I have yet to hear of any students who have actually done all 3/4 years of undergrad in Germany. I’m looking to do it both because I’m interested in possibly living in Germany (depending on how I would like it for the 3/4 years) and because it would be a lot cheaper.

I also know that the requirements have changed this year, it seems like I am not allowed into direct admission, but I will talk more about my stats later. I would also be interested to hear about anyone’s experience with studienkolleg before actually going to university. Is it worth it, even if I’m planning on going into a course that is taught in English? I do have a somewhat intermediate knowledge of German, so I probably could score a B1 (maybeee B2) needed for studienkolleg, but my German is nowhere near good enough for university level classes.

I have a bit of a complicated case as I am from the United States (Minnesota) and have lived here my entire life but I also have an EU citizenship (Estonian). I am also currently concurrently enrolled at my High School and at the University of Minnesota (I am a senior in HS). I will have only done this for this year so I will not be graduating with an associates degree, but I will be graduating with around 27 university credits (and 6 community college credits). These college classes are an intro English literature class, calculus, 4th semester of university German, 1st semester of Italian, a online geography class and online biorenewable class as well as a community college online environmental class and photography class taken (I know sometimes German universities do not look at online classes), and an environmental biology class (I might be forgetting something). Another possibility according to the DAAD database is to take AP courses, but my high school only has AP Calculus AB, AP Calculus BC, AP Statistics (which I took and got a 4 on), and AP Art, and the only classes which would count according to DAAD database are the two AP Calculus classes, so, along with the fact that I am currently only enrolled in university courses, that leaves AP tests out of the option too. I have received A’s for all of my classes with the exception of an A- I received in chemistry (but my high school does not do weighted grades for dual-enrollment or honors classes so my weighted grade is around a 4.01 from AP Stats [AP classes are 4.5 if that makes sense]). It seems like most German universities do not consider the ACT scores starting this year anymore, but I did receive over a 30 on the ACT.

I have tried to email my preferred universities which have the major I’m looking for in English (Leuphana University of Lüneburg, Brandenburg University of Technology Cottbus-Senftenberg, and Rhine-Waal University of Applied Sciences) but the responses I have received are mostly unhelpful (they do not seem to understand what I’m asking, could be due to language barrier) and it boils down to applying on uni-assist when applications open (which I plan on doing).

If anyone has any advice/experience, I would love to hear about it. If anyone else us also in the same boat of trying to apply to universities overseas/is thinking about it, I would also love to hear anything about that process. There seems to be a fairly small proportion of Americans who are international students during their undergraduate (besides maybe some in the UK).

2

My friends from EU went to study in Berlin, and they confirm that English is just as prevalent as German there. It’s a truly international city.
Sweden, and the Netherlands - even more programs taught in English.

A lot of people consider the European route but get discouraged, after being advised how little their education would mean here in the US - which would certainly depend on you plans beyond the undergrad degree.

3

ArtsyKidDad made a very good point that attending a university in Europe may not be the best career move if you foresee your future in the US. Have you thought about what your plans are after college and how studying in Europe fits into that?

If you want to attend a university in Germany without attending a Studienkolleg, you do have the option to take the final exam (“Feststellungsprüfung”) as an external candidate. It’s not recommended because the pass rates for external candidates are very low. I don’t know if there’s a way to get out of the German language exam part of the Feststellungsprüfung if your intended major is taught entirely in English.

You also have the option to attend an American university for another year (for a total of 2 years of college credits) before you apply to German universities.

4

Hi,

you are correct that SAT & ACT are no considered. Using the below link you can see the requirements for university admissions in Germany for US students - independent of the German proficiency test. None of the options takes DE classes or online classes into consideration.

https://anabin.kmk.org/no_cache/filter/schulabschluesse-mit-hochschulzugang.html#land_gewaehlt

The thing is, the German school system is 3-tierd and the Gymnasium level Leistungskurs is pretty much equivalent to APs. Hence the rigorous AP requirements. Even with IB it depends sometimes on the individual university and your selected major if they will accept SL or HL. I am afraid you will have keep reaching out to each university you are interested in regarding DE courses.

I find myself in a similar situation with similar options, so I researched it in my freshman year and double checked with a friend of the family who is a Prof from Germany teaching at a local university, having a son in the public school system here. He is using the same site.

**Oh I forgot the foreign language requirement. I can def see needing an AP or equivalent as the students are required to have 2. One most of the time from 5th to 12th grade and the second gained in 9th grade.

5

It really sucks that the German education system has such a distrust of the American system (although it slightly makes sense), but I get what you’re saying.

I think I will try to email the universities again, as I would say that the classes that I am taking at the University of Minnesota are at the same difficulty as AP classes (and I am taking them in the classroom with other undergraduate students and no ‘special treatment’ if that makes sense). I am sure that I would not struggle and probably thrive in a German university, although it is impossible to prove that to a University.

I could possibly try to take the AP tests without taking the class, although if that doesn’t go well, that is a lot of money spent for nothing. As for the language requirements, I am fluent in both English and Estonian, low intermediate to intermediate (4 university sems) in German, and novice (will have taken 1 university semester or approx the equivalent 1 HS year) of Italian so I would know 2+ foreign languages and I would hope that those would count.

I might also have to look into the German proficiency exam, although as others have stated as and I have heard, passing it without going to studienkolleg is rare.

6

“Distrust”? They would be shocked to hear your accusation that they have personal feelings about it :wink:
It’s just that the system is completely different - they love love stamps, seals, signatures, official certificates.
Many things that are done by sworn statement in the US, in many if not all European countries require petitioning an office, obtaining an official form with a round seal and an oblong stamp, certifying the form with another office, which may send you back to the first one because you’ve got a normal seal, not a raised-letter seal, etc., etc.

7

You can check with the Goethe Institut about German exams. They should also be able to counsel you on educational opportunities in Germany. https://www.goethe.de/ins/us/en/index.html It looks like the closest one for you is in Chicago.

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I was thinking about taking their exam to get B1/B2 certified, but I had never thought about asking them about university in Germany. I think I’ll try that, thanks!

9

Taking AP exams at another school would be your best bet to avoid a Studienkolleg. If you can’t pass AP exams in calculus and physics, you won’t pass the corresponding exams given in the German language either (the Studienkolleg final exams).

My understanding is that German universities did away with the ACT/SAT score option for admission because American students admitted that way turned out to be under-prepared. For example, calculus is a high school graduation requirement in Germany and not taught at universities. However, the SAT and ACT don’t test calculus so a good score doesn’t mean that you’re actually prepared.

Please be forewarned that Germany is an extremely bureaucratic country. The odds that someone will make an exception for you are essentially nil.

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Good to know. I am currently taking calculus 1 at the University of Minnesota, so I think I could pass the AP Calc AB exam with little prep, but I do not believe that I would be able to pass the physics exam.

In general, I am willing to do the year of studienkolleg, but I don’t see the point in taking it when my prefered program is in English and I have already proven that I can “keep up” at a reputable college, at least in the US. It’s not that I would not want to learn German, one of the reasons I wish to enroll in a German university is to improve my German just through the fact of living there and hearing German constantly, it is just that I don’t know how I feel about “putting off” my major when it will already be taught in my native language. But if I were to be offered a place at a studienkolleg, I probably would enroll in it anyways. It’s just that they would need to offer me that spot.

11

Please take your experience trying to obtain individual advice and counselling from German schools as a perfect introduction to the system. German universities don’t do individual counselling. Whether there was a language barrier or not, the answer you got was a variant of the answer you will get for the whole of your time at a German school:

These are the requirements. This is the process. Mit freundlichen Grüßen.

If it feels impersonal, indifferent and bureaucratic, that’s because it is. It’s what the system is. It does (mostly) level the playing field and lead to predictability and accountability in allocating places to hundreds of thousands of students from hundreds of high schools from almost a score of German states and probably a hundred foreign countries, at comparatively low cost. It doesn’t take into account individual needs or achievements beyond the stated requirements.

Edited to add that this is a little different at the masters level, so it is not just about US students feeling more ready to move abroad and succeed as graduate students, but the fit is somewhat better, the requirements and the process more individual.

This is not to put you off. You have already done very well researching the system. If you go on with the expectation that navigating it will be a tremendous growth experience, as opposed to just try it out because it’s cheaper, you have the mindset to succeed.

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May I ask what your intended major is?

For example, if you are planning to study something in the science-engineering domain, you would be under-prepared if you’re not comfortable taking science APs because the university will assume that you have that background.

On the other hand, if you’re planning to study something in the business, social science, humanities realm, you don’t need a science AP for admission, but you would need two language APs (English and a foreign language - German would be the obvious choice). The English AP makes sense as an admission requirement because social science majors involve a lot of writing. For example, your entire course grade for a semester may come from a single 20 page paper, which you’ll have to compose with minimal assistance.

I am sure you know all of the above. I just want to highlight that there’s a purpose to the admission requirements.

13

My intended major is environmental science, so at the universities I’m considering the official names would be Environmental and Resource Management, Global Environmental and Sustainability Studies, or Environment and Energy.

I’m comfortable taking AP’s, but my HS is not an AP focused school and therefore I have not had the opportunities to take AP classes aside from AP Stats and Calc. Long story short, my high school believes that AP classes are a waste because you’re not guaranteed credit and have to pay to prove that you are proficient. I don’t necessarily agree, especially after wanting to go to school in Germany, and that is the reason I’m taking classes at UMN. I’m taking an intro environmental biology class at UMN and like I’ve mentioned, Calculus 1. I know environmental science is an interdisciplinary field so along with those classes I’ve also taken ENGL 1001W (a freshman English class; W indicates that it is writing intensive), German 1004, Italian 1001, and multiple online classes. But if German universities are not willing to look at dual enrollment classes in the same way as AP classes, then I don’t know. I’m taking the classes with undergrad students so it’s not like the classes being DE for me means that they are easier than if I were to take them next year… I’m pretty sure even if I wanted to take any AP tests, I would now have to pay for the test and a late fee.

I’ll keep trying to see if they would consider UMN classes because it is a university that is recognized in Germany. And if I understand correctly, if I apply on uni assist, they will figure out weather I qualify/if I qualify for studienkolleg. Although if German universities are as bureaucratic as people are suggesting, it seems like my best chance is getting into a studienkolleg. Otherwise, I might do a year or two at University of Tartu in Estonia and transfer to a German university. That way I will have ‘proven’ myself.

14

That is too bad, but I think I get what you’re getting at. I’ll continue reaching out to other German resources, but I’m starting to think that I’ll just have to apply to uni assist when applications come out and see what happens.

I’m not that worried about moving abroad. I’m somewhat obnoxiously independent (ie. figuring out all of the German stuff alone, applied to NSLI-Y alone, traveled/booked hostels/etc. completely alone at 18, live independent and in a different city than my parents, etc.) and my very tentative dream would be to do my undergraduate in Germany while improving my German to be near fluency while learning Spanish and then doing my masters in a Spanish-speaking country . . . I recognize that this is very unconventional and unrealistic. But I have definitely noticed that doing an English graduate program almost anywhere seems very doable. But as I mentioned in a reply to someone else, while not my prefered situation, it seems more realistic to go to University of Tartu as an Estonian citizen and then possibly transfer from there to a German university if I’m not given a spot at a studienkolleg. . .


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Also I'm not sure if people are able to see who's post I'm replying to, but hopefully this isn't too confusing as I replied in the wrong order

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We can figure it out from the content, but if you were to adress us directly, like this @eestiamerica, it’s easier and we get a notification. :wink:

This thread may be of interest as well:
http://talk.qa.collegeconfidential.com/international-baccalaureate-ib/2141450-are-there-european-university-options-p1.html

I do not quite understand why you are digging your heels in about the AP exams being so costly. Yes, there is a risk your scores may not be high enough to get you into your desired program right away, but have you considered how much spending another year either at UMinn, an Estonian university or a German Studienkolleg would cost you, both in COA and lack of future earnings, and still not necessarily getting you any closer to your goal? Have you checked how easy it is to transfer to a German university after a year in Estonia?

It’s not that they distrust the system, or the college classes, or discount the learning. It’s that they need to see a standardised qualification to show for it, because that’s how their system works. Preparing for those AP exams on your own would actually be an excellent preparation for most any European university. That’s how they roll.

16

Somehow, studying at neighboring countries, especially in the Netherlands, disappeared from the picture. From what I have heard, it may cut the bureaucratic obstacles a quite a bit, while offering a world-class education, check the rankings for yourself. Are you focused solely on Germany?

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As for coming back to the US, you could

  1. Try to find work at a European company with US offices and transfer offices back to the US.
  2. Potentially get a US Master’s.
18

@Tigerle I get what you’re saying about AP’s. It’s somewhat confusing as to late registration, but I have seen, “The cost of each test will remain the same at $94, but a late fee of $40 will be charged if registration occurs between Nov. 16 and March 13. Students will be charged an additional $40 if they do not take an exam after signing up.” I have also seen that if you’re not taking the class at your HS, the deadline for signing up to take the test at a different high school was in October, so I will have to look further.

I was also thinking about dropping my Italian class and spending the time I would be at class/studying for that class studying for the 4 AP tests. But that would mean that I would only be taking 10/11 credits, barely enough to be considered a full time UMN student. I think I will stay in the Italian course for now, and look more into the AP tests and determine what I will do by next week.

It seems like both Tartu University and the German University use ECTS credits (European Credit Transfer and Accumulation System), so as far as I can tell, transfering would be possible, although I would have to look more into transferring after just 1 year.

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@ArtsyKidDad No, definitely not. Maybe I’m looking in the wrong places, but there seems to be few English environmental programs, but I have found at least 1 (Wageningen University & Research) that I will try to apply to.

I have talked to a girl who is from the US and will be going to a university in the Netherlands, and she said that the AP requirements stand, but at least at the university she is going to, only 1 year of university is required (so I should have that covered). I would also be interested in Switzerland, but a lot of those are only German/German and some English. I have definitely done the most research into programs in Germany

20

“But that would mean that I would only be taking 10/11 credits, barely enough to be considered a full time UMN student.”

Why do you need to be considered a full time UMN student?