American's views on Oxford! Cambridge...

Applying to College
161

<p>There is no statistical evidence for the proposition that only the best students apply to Oxbridge. There is also no independent factually verifiable evidence for the accompanying proposition that students, even straight A students, who do not apply to Oxbridge cannot be the best students because they have not applied to Oxbridge. Indeed various Oxbridge worthies have pronounced on how concerned they are that so many eligible students do not bother to apply: they've even spent time and money trying (with very limited results) to rectify this.</p>

<p>In fact as Inuendo's posts suggest, the low application and high acceptance rates for Oxbridge suggest the opposite of what the Oxbridge Luvvies are trying to claim.</p>

<p>As for LSE: its students are often far more highly qualified than Oxbridge students - for a start far more of them are postgraduates, and international postgraduates at that (drawn from a wider and larger pool of applicants).</p>

<p>At undergraduate level LSE's economics students especially will need at least the same grades as Oxbridge students, yet LSE gets far more applications per place (again drawn from a much wider international pool, so that many of them will have qualifications that carry much greater credibility than the now discredited A Level).</p>

<p>Of course it's not surprising that LSE should get more and better applicants than Oxbridge for so many of its key programmes: it has a global reputation in these fields which Oxbridge cannot match, as even the Times has acknowledged in its world ranking.</p>

<p>Incidentally, what's happened to uWarwick, the slavering janitor of the Oxbridge worshipping temple? Has he died of sheer ecstasy after re-reading Brideshead revisited for the umpteenth time? </p>

<p>On the other hand maybe his email address can be reactivated, along with others, when ever it's time to claim that the Oxbridge Luvvy viewpoint is supported here by more contributors than is actually the case?</p>

162

<p>
[quote]
"Oxbridges hefty tuition". For all europeans tuition is around 1500 dollars -yes 1500- a year currently (set to rise a bit with top up fees, though). Compare with 30000 dollars tuition in the states - yes you get financial aid but most normal middle class people wont get a free ride and will still have to pay a significant fraction " expected family contribution". Remember that "full demonstrated need" is decided by the college - many end up not attending ivies as they cant afford the efc. Generally, middle class americans thus generally pay many times more towards college than europeans do towards oxbridge. (if your poor you get fin. aid, if your rich you dont need it, and if your middle class youre in trouble.). even though some people can get good deals, Financial aid generally still implies that you and your family will pay ridiculous amounts of money (>oxbridge).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>The average debt upon graduation of a Princeton student is $8000.
The average debt upon graduation of a Cambridge student is currently $17,500 and could rise to $27,000 after top up fees are introduced (according to the Cambridge Evening News). </p>

<p>So the average Cambridge graduate from the UK graduates twice as much in debt as his or her counterpart from Princeton, and soon maybe three times as much in debt. </p>

<p>The posts about tuition usually overlook living costs, which are quite high in the Oxbridge areas. The truth is that the current price tag for Cambridge is $15,000 a year, set to rise to $19,000 next year (when top up fees come in force), while the average price tag of Princeton is $29,500 a year. Cambridge is still clearly cheaper - but not as much as bigmo would have you believe. </p>

<p>For international students, Cambridge is more expensive per year, (depending on the course and the college $34,000 to $58,000). Of course, most courses in the UK last only three years, not four, so Cambridge can work out cheaper in the end.</p>

163

<p>Thank you for that excellent post cevonia. It only validates my comment that Oxbridge loses out on top international students because of its inability to match the financial packages of elite US universities due its comparable lack of resources. </p>

<p>Additionally, and I am sure that you can confirm this, the majority of European students admitted to Oxford or Cambridge receive student loans whilst those admitted to universities in the US, such as Princeton, primarily receive grants so as to minimise debt upon graduation.</p>

164

<p>comparing the debt is the most meaningless statistic ever - one interpretation is that a lot of princeton students are just so rich that they dont have to get loans at all. also most british parents dont finance their childrens college to the extent they do in the us - i.e. no efc.</p>

<p>"
PrincetonUniversity
Financial Aid Information and Application Instructions (Class of 2009)</p>

<p>Fees and Expenses</p>

<p>Fees and expenses for the academic year 2004-05
Tuition<br>
$29,910
Room charge<br>
4,315
Board rate<br>
4,072
Estimated miscellaneous expenses (books, supplies, laundry, telephone, recreation, etc.)<br>
3,083</p>

<p>Estimated total<br>
$41,380" not 29000</p>

<p>so princeton charges 29000 tuition. then there are 11000 living expenses which dont really have to do with the university.</p>

<p>"We have estimated that you should allow on average £5,700 a year for living costs." -cam website.</p>

<p>oxbridge: currently maximum 2000 tuition (will rise a bit). then around 10000 living expenses - again not directly that much to do with the university. </p>

<p>so living expences are comparable or less even with the exorbitant dollar to pound exchange rates. tuition figures speak for themselves - 2000 vs. 30000.</p>

<p>With grants/fin. aid etc. US is still more expensive than oxbridge tuition. I.e. wow, i got 15000 dollars financial aid from harvard, now I only have to pay the remaining 25000.</p>

<p>And as for non european internationals - i dont know where the 58000 figure came from. tuition for internationals is around 20000 dollars in all but one subject - (medicine) - 8832 pounds humanities 11571 science. So unless you get a lot of financial aid it still works out cheaper for many people then the states. And as you very fairly pointed out the degrees are 3 years so in many cases it will be cheaper, even for internationals. That is why inuendos statement about matching financial aid packages was false - who cares if you get fin. aid if its still more expensive? (3. anyone?)
Of course oxbridge should still try to increase fin. aid for non europeans -international challenge (despite it being public and serving its own taxpayers).</p>

<p>But for basically all europeans - and some internationals - oxbridge works out as a better deal.</p>

165

<p>The $29,500 is the average price that Princeton students pay, not the sticker price. It's calculated as follows: ((average cost after financial aid x students on financial aid) + (full price x students not on financial aid))/total number of students </p>

<p>And it makes sense to take into account the total costs associated with college education - especially since you pay living costs to none other than the university (try living off campus in Oxford, it'll cost twice as much). I mean, it doesn't do much good if you can afford the 2000 pounds for tuition but can't afford to live in Oxford, does it? When people budget for college, they tend to budget for the fact you need to eat and sleep somewhere at night during those years.</p>

<p>The $58,000 is the price for medecine, plus all expenses (because, as I say, they count). If you take the $34,000 (which is the absolute minimum international students pay) x 3 = $108,000, while $29,500 x 4 = $118,000 - so it is cheaper, but not that much. If you factor in travelling costs (which US universities do when calculating financial aid) the gap closes even more. </p>

<p>Your point about undegraduate indebtness is a fair one: it doesn't take into account the fact that loads of students don't need to take out loans at all. I'm trying to find that sort of number for Princeton, but apparently it doesn't exist. Pity, it would be a very good indicator...</p>

166

<p>I just checked USNews and World Report and it turns out that the average student indebtness of Princeton students at graduation is $6500 for those who took out loans - not all graduates. Make of that as you will.</p>

167

<p>cncm, although there are no official quotas based on country, the American universities seek "diversity". </p>

<p>This does mean that often a better suited applicant from say, China would be overlooked in favour of an applicant from another relatively underrepresented country - simply because the university may have already admitted many Chinese applicants that year.</p>

<p>So although there may be no official quota - the adcoms definitely keep an eye on the racial and geographical make up of the class.</p>

168

<p>though many dont know it, oxbridge offers support (albeit limited) towards living expences etc. - check out bursaries (newton trust etc.). and a few scholarships for internationals.
Comparing full oxbridge full fees with something including financial aid is not really 100% fair. </p>

<p>I will agree that for internationals the price is more equal - if internationals get the average amount of financial aid then the price of oxbridge will be only slightly lower. But remember that this assumes no bursaries or scholarships are given from oxbridge and it also assumes the (in my opinion) slightly high estimate of 34000$ (this is calculated for all subjects except medicine) is correct.</p>

<p>Yes it does make sense to include living expenses but those are not really under the universities control and you incur them anywhere. The difference in what you pay altogether is still large however even with financial aid. Say the 29500 figure means that you get on average 10000 dollars aid, and say oxbridge gives you no bursaries and you have to pay full tuition - very generous conditions for your side of the debate.</p>

<p>P'ton: 29500$</p>

<h2>Oxbridge: (2000$ + 10000$=12000$)*3/4 [---3 not 4 years]</h2>

<p>difference =29500$ - 9000$= 20500$ more at princeton per year for a bachelors degree. Im sure youll agree that thats a fairly substantial difference</p>

<p>Only if you get 20500 dollars more financial aid then the average financial aid (3 times the average), oxbridge will be exactly equally expensive for a european.</p>

<p>As I said:
For basically all europeans - and some internationals - oxbridge works out as a better deal. [about me i have lived in uk but live in germany now so know about eu /intl fees etc.]</p>

<p>P.S. and im still not sure about the statistical significance of the loan figure. If you have many fairly well off people they will only need to take out small loans to afford college.
PPS hatingtonyblairs posts remind me of someone else's i read above.... (clear category 2)
PPS and if oxbridge is not better than LSE UCL then why does oxbridge have a yield close to 100%, much higher than others ? surely if others shared your view they would reject oxbridge for lse much more often than the other way round and lse would have a higher yield...</p>

169

<p>dont forget u get a free masters degree at oxbridge!</p>

170

<p>Well, you can pay for the MA a few years after you have graduated.</p>

171

<p>hatingtonyblair, Oxbridge recieves better applicants than all the other universities in the UK, whether you accept it or not. You can't hide behind statistics, just face the reality of the situation.</p>

<p>Can you not accept the simple fact that city based universities will always recieve more applications? </p>

<p>The following all recieve more applications per place than Oxbridge:
Keele/Kingston/Brunel/Goldsmiths/Leeds/Bournemouth/Loughborough/Cardiff/
Brighton/Reading/Southbank/Salford/Ulster/Surrey/Teeside/Derby/Coventry</p>

<p>...and I stopped compiling the list at that point. Please don't be so idiotic as to suggest that all of the above are more competitive as Oxbridge. They're not.</p>

<p>The fact is, that mediocre/good students don't even bother applying to Oxbridge. It is usually only the very bright that go for it. </p>

<p>Obviously I am not suggesting that every single Oxbridge applicant is better than every single Imperial/LSE/UCL applicant - most apply to both! But definitely, the Oxbridge applicants have the edge.</p>

172

<p>
[quote]
Comparing full oxbridge full fees with something including financial aid is not fair.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I am essentially comparing the average price of the universities. The average price tag at Princeton is $29,500 a year. The average price tag at Cambridge for a British/EU student is $15,000 (the bursary, which I took into account, is capped at 1,000 pounds and only applies to at most 750 British students. The difference it makes to the average is lost in the exchange rate.) </p>

<p>So let's put it this way: Oxbridge is a better deal for all EU and UK students (and do not call them basically all Europeans, I am a European and proud not to be part of the EU) whose families earn more than $65,000 (a household earning this amount, with only one child in college, has an EFC of around $15,000. Households with two college age children need to earn about $90,000 for an EFC of $15,000 per student). Since the median household income in both the UK and the US is slightly south of $45,000, this means that Princeton is the better deal for the majority of citizens. ;)</p>

<p>There was interesting article on Slate, I think (or maybe in the Economist, I no longer remember which) which pointed out that the HYP way of need-based financial aid is much more progressive (in the economics sense) and socialist than the British model, which should be socialist but ends up, like the poll tax, penalising the lower income households far more than the higher income ones (come to think of it, it was probably the Economist). </p>

<p>The fact is that HYPS et al, while not as cheap as Oxbridge (for families earning more than $65,000), they are certainly affordable, which after all is the main thing. They make every effort to charge only what you can realistically expect to pay (this falls hardest on those earning between $100,000 and $200,000 becuase their costs of living tend to be higher while their EFC is also much bigger). Assuming that parents are willing to pay for college (and I agree that European parents don't pay the way that US parents do, but part of that is probably becuase they perceive it as them already having paid when they paid taxes), from the students' point of view, therefore, Princeton is the 'better deal' at all income levels - as witnessed by the substantially lower debt burden Princeton graduates carry. </p>

<p>OK, I've rambled on a bit, but I think that my main point (and frankly, I'm not sure, it's 1.30 AM and I should be asleep) is that while the sticker tag may be cheaper, Oxbridge is not necessarily the 'better deal' for all EU and UK students. </p>

<p>The $34,000 is actually the cheapest possible rate. Engineering courses cost slightly more. They are taken from <a href="http://www.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/international/costs.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.cam.ac.uk/admissions/undergraduate/international/costs.html&lt;/a> and converted at today's interbank rate at <a href="http://www.oanda.com%5B/url%5D"&gt;www.oanda.com&lt;/a>. To be strictly fair, it may be over stated by a few hundred pounds as these are next year's fees, but they are the only ones I could find. And international bursaries for Oxbridge are really limited and you have to do all sorts of things to get them. Also, they never offer anything near full price. (I looked. If Cambridge had been significantly cheaper than Princeton, I would have chosen Cambridge in a heart beat. As it is, financial aid and the guarantee that even if the worst should happen (touch wood) I'll still be able to go made Princeton the financial choice).</p>

173

<p>hash: I agree. It is true that in terms of popularity, oxbridge is certainly not the highest on the list, it is rather the city universities with the most applicants. Setting aside other factors, I was rejected from Edinburgh with an offer of 38 IB points, while a classmate with the same predictions was given an offer from Cambridge to read law. It's just an individual example, but still.</p>

174

<p>sorry, with a "prediction of 38 IB points"</p>

175

<p>i have been to the UK. i like cambridge much better. :)
it doesnt' matter which one is better, as long as u like it.
( i have no idea which is the best among yale, prinston , stanford..)
they all have good names..., just go wherever i feel comfortable</p>

176

<p>there are a few logical problems with your post.</p>

<ul>
<li><p>remember average financial aid is ca. 10000$ (according to you people pay on average 29500 of sticker price of 41000)</p></li>
<li><p>a household earning 65000 (lets say there richer than the median 45000) has 15000 contribution out of 41000.</p></li>
</ul>

<p>A fairly well off household thus supposedly gets financial aid of close to 25000 (can't take off debt as supposedly only about 1500 per year).</p>

<p>how the hell can the average be 10000 if a comparatively well off person should get 25000 aid? </p>

<p>(Note that here the argument of "well thats because of a few people dragging the averages down a lot" does not apply here - you cant get less then 0 financial aid)</p>

<p>there are now only 3 conclusions left due to this inconsistency:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>The information you supplied was false, thereby undermining your argument</p></li>
<li><p>Princeton admits almost exclusively rich people, as how else could the average fin. aid be a third of that of a household much richer than an average citizen. If it is true that almost no non-rich people get admitted the fact that it accepts everyone need blind and gives sufficient financial aid is undermined fatally - thereby undermining your argument.</p></li>
<li><p>Princeton lies about its policies or does not implement them, thereby undermining your argument.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>I see no alternatives so until this has been clarified, i still maintain that for all EU people and some internationals oxbridge is cheaper.</p>

<p>P'ton: 29500$</p>

<h2>Oxbridge: (2000$ + 10000$=12000$)*3/4 [---3 not 4 years]</h2>

<p>difference =29500$ - 9000$= 20500$ more at princeton per year for a bachelors degree.</p>

177

<p>I'm afraid 'Hash' that you really are making a hash of your arguments. As I said there is no statistical or independent evidence to suggest that LSE's students are of lower calibre than those at Oxbridge. There is a very slight difference in A Level grades but this is cancelled out by LSE's desire to take a higher proportion of disadvantaged and mature students, who have the potential but not always the highest grades -if anything given the larger application pool and the higher proportion of post graduates the average LSE student will probably be better qualified than the average Oxbridge student.</p>

<p>Hash you still have not, even under your other pseudonyms, been able to produce independent evidence to support the idea that somebody applying to Oxbridge with three As is of higher calibre than somebody applying to Imperial or LSE with three As. </p>

<p>This is because there is no such evidence: all you have is assertion, you just keep on repeating the same claim. Repeated assertion, unaccompanied by evidence, is not the same thing as rational argument. </p>

<p>As for your use of the word 'idiotic' -keep on with that and you will get yourself barred from the site, no matter how many different email addresses and identities you are using.</p>

178

<p>Inuendo, excellent posts: British universities in general cannot match the resources and support that the top US universities can supply.</p>

179

<p>uWarwick :'Dont forget u get a free masters degree at oxbridge!'</p>

<p>Er, you have to pay for it (there is a small fee), and this dubious privilege is also available to graduates of Scots universities....it's just a name thing, everyone knows they are just BAs..</p>

180

<p>Well, the answer to your question applies to both Princeton and Oxbridge. The reason that the average household income of all Princeton students is so much higher than the national average is because of the demographics of the students who both apply and make it to Princeton. Half of all students don't even need financial aid. Princeton, like Oxbridge, is still the domain of the well off. Partly that has to do with opportunities - it is generally agreed that the richer your family, the more they can afford not only schools but extra curriculars and also the more emphasis they place on education - and partly that has to do with the perception that Princeton - and its pricetag - (and the rest of the Ivy league's) is one of the elitist old schools, only for the children of rich people. The same perception exists for Oxbridge. </p>

<p>Half of all incoming undergraduates now recieves financial aid (the highest in the league), up from 31% just four years ago - a pretty good sign that they are serious about attracting lower income students and making sure that they can come. Also, of those that do receive financial aid, the average financial aid package is $22,369. They've been trying to broaden their economic diversity and it's been working, but it will take some time, and it will still always be skewed in favour of the well off because the children of the well off tend to do better than those less well off (for the reasons I mentioned before). I should mention that Oxbridge are trying to do the exact same thing.</p>